Starting Trouble

[Jordan]

Changing the internet one post at at time.
http://saabnet.com/tsn/bb/performance/i ... bID=128748

Oh arguing on the internet....what can I say, I have time on my hands.

[Luke]

lol, man I sure am glad we have our own forums where it is understood that a classic 900 is one rugged car.

I remember Per from GRM telling me after he did his first rally in a 99 "man that is one tough car" He couldnt believe the stuff he drove through on basically stock suspension, and the steering was still dead straight afterwards. He's driven a lot of cars hard, so that carries some weight coming from him.

There's this guy named Mike Sunders or something on SC, I think he owns a NG900 and has severe Classic SAAB envy... He seems to troll the C900 boards and his response to every thread he replies to is about the weak transmission, never says anything productive or seems to have any knowledge to add. I always see his posts and find them very annoying even though I try not to be annoyed by things like that.

[Jordan]

I always see his posts and find them very annoying even though I try not to be annoyed by things like that.

You're a better man than I.

It's funny how when you get older you see how information sort of changes and gets dumbed-down and simplified and then petrifies as fact by repetition. I won't pretend to know about half of what Luke knows about SAAB, and am sure I've misstated a fact or two, but I feel like its sort of my duty of someone who loves the classics, to enlighten them of what I DO know.

I just know people are junking or devaluing these cars because of misrepresented information.By pushing against it, it's sort of a twisted way I can hopefully save some. The interwebs can work for and against us, and someone has got to fight the good fight.

I'm also very thankful for this forum. My whole reason for posting over there in first place is to try to spread the word about the awesome stuff that goes on around here. Coming from a place where I once knew nothing, I understand it's easy to just go with the crowd...we just happen to be a great crowd.

[DrewP]

I've never broken a C900 transmission, and our two '85's have been putting out more than stock power (sometimes significantly more) for 8 years now, plus tow car duty, plus cross-country moves dragging trailers made from pickup beds....

I don't think they're as inherently weak as most people seem to think they are, IF they're treated and maintained well, and rebuilt by someone who knows what they are doing (not many people).

Everyone here seems to already have learned that if you demand more from something than it was originally designed you can be asking for trouble, but the majority of the population doesn't understand that.

What we strive for as designers is to make as realistic attempt at delivering a rugged product that can withstand as much or more than it was intended to withstand in the first place, and I agree with you Jordan, the designers that brought the C900 did an extremely good job at doing just that.

[hutch]

That mike Saunders fella seems to have a good amount of knowledge about the ng900 and I think he's even had a c900 or two but his constant complaining about the c900 transmission is very old and stale. I think part of the problem is that a) he is a journalist so he likes to argue about things and b) he's from MA so he's an asshole

Owning both a 9-3 and a c900 there's no contest that the 900 is the better engineered car, the fact that it's even an argument and the 900 came out 20 years before should be proof it was the better designed car. That being said having another car to drive daily besides a 900 is pretty nice. Although I've never had a 900 break on me to the point I couldn't fix it on the side of the road enough to get home it's hard to argue with some of the creature comforts of the newer cars and the peace of mind that goes along with not having to drive a car that's as old as I am is pretty comforting. The gm cars seems to be much better at putting down higher amounts of torque and going in a straight line but it really is a garbage platform, and iirc about as old a c900. I replaced the dampers on my 9-3 with koni's because the stock ones were shot and I put on one of those steering rack braces because it was pretty cheap but that's as far as I'd go because they really do handle awfully to the point where a base model 900 could leave it in the corners so theres not much point in trying to change that. But the engine in the viggen really is a great engine and it's power really is addictive, that's about the only advantage over a 900 I think the new cars have.

I too have never broken a c900 transmission but I don't have obscene amounts of power and I try to be sensible about not trying to bash the hell out of them and it seems to be working well so far

[DrewP]

I like DD'ing my 9-5, it's comfy and quiet and I can actually hear the radio (for which reception is excellent), but there are LOTS of things that can strand you without warning, and you can't carry spares of all the essentials in a road trip shoe box like I can in my C900. I can fit all my essential spares for the C900 under the parcel shelf in the trunk.

[Jordan]

I liked my Viggen well enough. I just found it uninspired and didn't enjoy the extra expense associated with fixing it. I also knew it would never feel as good as my 900s have without some serious infusion of cash (and even then?). It was a great commuter car though. Quick, quiet, decent sound system like you said.

Geoff rallycrossed (still runs?) an auto box car. He changes the fluid a lot, but it was lasting longer than he wanted it to, if I recall correctly!

BTW, where's jungletits when you need him?

[DeLorean]

he's from MA so he's an asshole

Yep, anyone whos got any sense has moved away from there long ago.

Personally, I don't hold back the "facts" about cars. Are C-900 transmissions in the lower percentile for reliability? Yes. - there is no doubt about this! Is replacing a transmission in a 900 more time consuming then in most other cars? Yes, absolutely. Does the car itself have other characteristics that make it a good car and worth replacing a transmission in? Yes again. All cars have strong points and weak points. I have many cars, most of which are NOT Saabs, and I still drive Saabs because they are better in many areas my other cars are not.

Let me toss out an example. Merc W123 Turbo diesel. You will NEVER have a transmission problem with one. You will never have an engine problem unless you were to run it out of oil and keep driving it for several hours on the highway.

What's the trouble? They still rust, almost as bad as C-900's. They are not very fun to drive either. They handle fairly well, however they sure don't feel like it from the drivers POV. They are about as confidence inspiring as a pig with a saddle and feel very wooly. You can drive it fast, and it will hang on, but the car feels as though it does not prefer for you to do that. Road feel is bad, it has bad turn in, it ALWAYS plows at the limit. The car feels like it would just prefer to go straight. Absolutely the opposite to the C-900 for driving dynamics.

Heres another example. My 2011 Subaru WRX STI. 11,000 miles, it needed an engine. Search "Subaru ringland failure" The Subaru motors are crap. The transmission and drive line is another matter. Bulletproof apparently. We'll see... Handling wise, the car is a great, but can be a little scary. It handles better than a C-900, but realistically, only a little better. The trouble is, at the limit, it's so much less forgiving that it's fairly easy to see why so many get crashed. Grip grip grip, but if you hit a gravel patch, there is a high probability you will end up in a field pointing backwards.

On the back roads, give me a properly aligned C-900 with 16" wheels and some autoX tires. 16V turbo or even a non turbo with a properly working 5 speed. There won't be much that can stay with me.

[Geoff]

Geoff rallycrossed (still runs?) an auto box car. He changes the fluid a lot, but it was lasting longer than he wanted it to, if I recall correctly!

I was using my '86 2dr 900S with automatic box for winter rallycrosses as well as daily driving and towing ~1500-2000lb. I put near 100K miles on it and the only issues I had were that the locking pawl for putting it in 'park' stopped working after a rallycross (had to use the ebrake for parking) and the pump started getting weak (which meant it wouldn't shift well when cold). 1st gear was pretty good for rallycross since it was kind of tall. I used to drain whatever fluid would come out of the pan and replace it with Amsoil fluid with every oil change. It still worked when I stopped driving it but the slow shifts in the mornings made it annoying. I have a 9000 Aero which is a decent commuting car but not as fun in the twisty stuff.

Between my wife, my dad, my brother and I we've probably put well over a million miles on C900s and I had one 5spd failure (3rd gear teeth), two with noisy pinion bearings (one which I sold to a neighbor who beat on it and broke it), and four automatics that developed weak pumps and slow shifting in the cold.

[Hans]

You all must have a gearbox rabbit's foot in the glove box: I've had a couple bad pinion bearings (86, 89), a bad synchro (92), and, this past weekend, pulled an 85 'box out that had nicely auto-machined itself. I have not blown one up, though I'm running modest boost (19psi on a cool damp day) and I haven't driven like an asshat in years.

On-topic: I used to autocross c900s a whole bunch and never had a problem. I did, however, break an a-arm while backing out of a parking space to drive the car to grid.

More on-topic: A friend autocrossed my stock, healthy c900 back-to-back with his stock, healthy NG900, and easily beat his best time in his NG900 (same exact tires, similar condition/age). First time in the c900, first run after 4-5 runs in the NG900. The NG900 is a turd.

[Crazyswede]

The NG900 is a good highway car. My daily driver has been good for the last 50,000 miles. The car does ok in the snow but the rear end comes around very fast when you are trying to drift a snowy corner. The stock springs are designed to break after 1000 cycles and all the suspension components are designed to camoflage the true location of knocks and rattles.

[Geoff]

Speaking of stirring up trouble
http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222965

The internets are awesome!

[nutcase]

Pest!

I chuckled

Then moved it to the right place

[Geoff]

Which made me have to put an edit at the bottom to explain why it was even funnier.

By the way, is there really a "right place" for that kind of thread?