C900 SPG Purchase - Possible Fiasco
Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:52 am
Thought I would share with you my story of buying a Saab 900 SPG (T16S for us Europeans) this last week (actually, it was a seven month process). I suppose this will be a story about how not to buy a Saab 900….Am also posting this over at Saablink so apologies to those of you who hang out at both forums.
In short, I grew up in a Saab family with my parents owning mainly Saab 9000s (although what I consider to be my first car was a 1981 C900 gle). We purchased our first saab in January 1988, and have had a total of 12 cars since (including the C900 I just purchased). I am also own a fully restored Saab 99 Turbo and a fully restored Saab 9000 Aero (post to follow soon on these cars as well).
My infatuation with Saab began in 1985 at the age of ten - one of my father’s colleagues who we would car pooled with to school owned a 1985 900 T16S (aero) in silver with red interior. This car left a huge impression on me, and even though our neighbor down the street purchased new a Ferrari Mondial new around the same time, somehow the C900 stood out to me as a kid as being very special, and I decided at the time that “when I grew up”, I would own one.
I started looking for a flat nosed C900s in silver with red interior about three years ago. Unfortunately, C900s are rare generally in Hungary, as Saabs were not sold in Hungary till I believe 1991, and few were sold new here. There also is a very active Saab 900 club in Hungary, and good examples are snapped up immediately when they come up for sale. So I have been trolling around Blockett and mobile.de for the last three years. As a general rule, the Italian cars tend to be better because of the drier and warmer climate. Also, Saab sold a ton of C900s in the 80s to style conscious Italians. I know that Swedish cars from the North also tend to be relatively rust free as they do not use salt on the roads up north. Cars from the Stockholm area tend to be quite rotten….
What I have found through my search over the last five years is:
- C900s are generally much more expensive in Europe than in the US. If a car goes for USD 5000 in the US, a comparable car will be at least EUR 5000 if not more in Europe, even though the Euro is generally 33% stronger than the dollar. I would say that on average, cars go for 40% to 50% more here.
900s are generally going up fast in price – cars that I thought were too expensive and USD 5000 three years ago are now changing hands for USD 8000-10,0000.
- Good SPGs/T16S examples are becoming very rare and hard to come by. They generally fall on two spectrums of the scale – very used and rusted, or in excellent condition (either restored or original) but extremely expensive (there are some A1 condition SPGs being sold for over USD 20K in Europe nowadays).
- At least in Europe, if one finds a low mileage unmolested example of a T16S, it normally is a base S model with cloth interior. Actually, Saabs sold in the US generally tend to have much higher specs than those sold in the US.
- Flat nose 900s are generally rare what ever the type. About 80% of the cars being sold today are slant nosed models.
- In Europe, the top collectors of C900s seem to be the Dutch. The Germans also have a strong following. Otherwise, Sweden is still the best source for C900s.
- In Europe, you never see C900 SPGs for less than USD 4000 – whatever the condition. Honestly, it seems that the prices for SPGs bottom out around this level generally
In October, I stumbled upon an Internet listing for a 1985 SPG in Silver with red leather interior. It was an original two owner Bologna car – the dealer/collector selling had bought the car in 2006 from the second owner, and put it straight into storage (planning to restore or sell at some point, but never got round to it). Having spent its life in a warm dry part of Italy, I figured it would have little rust, which the owner confirmed telephonically. He sent me very detailed pictures which showed some rust on the door bottoms, but otherwise the car seemed in very good shape. The front seats had been reskinned to very high standard, and it looked to be all there.
My feeling is that any 30 year old car which has not been restored is probably going to need a restoration at some point any way. So my goal was to find a car which is reasonably complete and reasonably rust free, and I would restore the vehicle in stages over a three year period, including full re-spray, suspension rebuild and engine rebuild. Although the car I purchased looked very dirty and used, it seemed to fulfill these criteria.
Problem was that the car was in Bologna Italy, and my wife was very pregnant (she gave birth four weeks ago). After a ton of haggling, we settled on a price of EUR 4500 (USD 6000) with delivery to Hungary and export papers arranged. I looked into delivery costs, and you are probably looking at EUR 1000 to deliver a call from Italy to Hungary. As to export papers, I was in negotiations with another dealer in Italy on a C900, and they were asking for EUR 500 for arranging the export papers. Travelling to Italy to check out the car and stay a night would probably have been bout EUR 500 on top of that. So I was figuring that I was buying the car for EUR 3000 (USD 4000), with the transport and export papers costing about EUR 1500 (USD 2000). I did not have time to travel to Bologna given our recent addition to the family, so I decided to take a leap of faith. We agreed on a down payment, and the dealer brought the car to Budapest where we agreed I would pay the rest of the purchase price.
The dealer arrived yesterday, and I got to look at the car close up for the first time (pictures attached).
First the good:
- The body is incredibly rust free. Absolutely no rust anywhere on the hood, wheel arches, trunk and all the other usual external body areas. There were scratches and dents here and there, but nothing detrimental. Also no rust on the hood underside.
- The only rust on the top part of the car is on the door bottoms – some bubling, but easily fixable according to my Saab indy.
- The interior is in reasonably good shape. The front seats are in excellent shape, the rear seats are very dry but no rips.
- The engine is sweet as a nut. It turns, breaks, rides, and handles great. You could tell that the car was well maintained mechanically – new quality break lines, and the engine bay was generally very clean.
- The car is complete – all the SPG panels are there and in good shape.
- Electric windows and sunroof works a treat.
- The gear box does not crunch much. The only crunch I really heard in the forward gears was just a little mechanical resistance when down shifting from third to second. I believe the shifter needs to be realigned. If I do not push the gear lever all the way to the right when putting into reverse, then there sometimes is a bit of a crunch.
The bad:
- Unfortunately there is rot on the bottom of the car. Very odd, but it seems to be almost completely just on one side – the driver’s side. The passenger side is absolutely perfect with not so much as surface rust.
- The driver’s side rear floor pan seems to have been badly repaired – no more rust, but I think we will have to tear it apart and do it properly. Panels have just been tack welded in place. Pretty sloppy.
- There is rust in the transmission tunnel lip on the driver’s side. This will need to be cut out and re-welded. I understand that there are repair panels that can be purchased for this purpose.
- There is rust on the rear shock mounts. Not sure how bad yet – when we start pealing away, it may be just a little rust – may be a lot of rust. We will only know when we start tearing into it.
- There is a little rust on the spare wheel well.
- It seems at some point the car was converted to run on LPG. the trunk interior trim will need to be replaced (my saab guy has an appropriate donor for this, so no big deal). Also, I know of a company that rebuilds wiring looms at reasonable cost in Hungary, so this will be the back up option.
- I was fully expecting the wiring loom to be dry rotted being a 1985, and of course this was the case. We will need to do a full wiring loom replacement – my indy also said this should not be too big of a deal for him, and he should have a good donor wiring loom in stock.
- The headline was badly replaced some time ago – I will likely have to rip it out and replace.
None of the gauges work other than the speedo. I guess this is as a result of the wiring loom being dry rotted.
- The axle on one side needs replacing. Of course all the regular bushings also need to be replaced.
- The radiator grill is cracked. The spoiler lip is ripped in the middle.
- The tires are also a bit cracked and need to be changed – not the end of the world, but an expense nonetheless.
When the rust issues came to light, I almost did not buy the car and was close to deciding to forgo the deposit (EUR 1500). But sometimes cars find you and are meant to be in your possession. Somehow I feel this was the case with the SPG. I know this was the case with respect to my 99 Turbo and 9000 Aero.
Am posting this in two parts - please see below for continuation
In short, I grew up in a Saab family with my parents owning mainly Saab 9000s (although what I consider to be my first car was a 1981 C900 gle). We purchased our first saab in January 1988, and have had a total of 12 cars since (including the C900 I just purchased). I am also own a fully restored Saab 99 Turbo and a fully restored Saab 9000 Aero (post to follow soon on these cars as well).
My infatuation with Saab began in 1985 at the age of ten - one of my father’s colleagues who we would car pooled with to school owned a 1985 900 T16S (aero) in silver with red interior. This car left a huge impression on me, and even though our neighbor down the street purchased new a Ferrari Mondial new around the same time, somehow the C900 stood out to me as a kid as being very special, and I decided at the time that “when I grew up”, I would own one.
I started looking for a flat nosed C900s in silver with red interior about three years ago. Unfortunately, C900s are rare generally in Hungary, as Saabs were not sold in Hungary till I believe 1991, and few were sold new here. There also is a very active Saab 900 club in Hungary, and good examples are snapped up immediately when they come up for sale. So I have been trolling around Blockett and mobile.de for the last three years. As a general rule, the Italian cars tend to be better because of the drier and warmer climate. Also, Saab sold a ton of C900s in the 80s to style conscious Italians. I know that Swedish cars from the North also tend to be relatively rust free as they do not use salt on the roads up north. Cars from the Stockholm area tend to be quite rotten….
What I have found through my search over the last five years is:
- C900s are generally much more expensive in Europe than in the US. If a car goes for USD 5000 in the US, a comparable car will be at least EUR 5000 if not more in Europe, even though the Euro is generally 33% stronger than the dollar. I would say that on average, cars go for 40% to 50% more here.
900s are generally going up fast in price – cars that I thought were too expensive and USD 5000 three years ago are now changing hands for USD 8000-10,0000.
- Good SPGs/T16S examples are becoming very rare and hard to come by. They generally fall on two spectrums of the scale – very used and rusted, or in excellent condition (either restored or original) but extremely expensive (there are some A1 condition SPGs being sold for over USD 20K in Europe nowadays).
- At least in Europe, if one finds a low mileage unmolested example of a T16S, it normally is a base S model with cloth interior. Actually, Saabs sold in the US generally tend to have much higher specs than those sold in the US.
- Flat nose 900s are generally rare what ever the type. About 80% of the cars being sold today are slant nosed models.
- In Europe, the top collectors of C900s seem to be the Dutch. The Germans also have a strong following. Otherwise, Sweden is still the best source for C900s.
- In Europe, you never see C900 SPGs for less than USD 4000 – whatever the condition. Honestly, it seems that the prices for SPGs bottom out around this level generally
In October, I stumbled upon an Internet listing for a 1985 SPG in Silver with red leather interior. It was an original two owner Bologna car – the dealer/collector selling had bought the car in 2006 from the second owner, and put it straight into storage (planning to restore or sell at some point, but never got round to it). Having spent its life in a warm dry part of Italy, I figured it would have little rust, which the owner confirmed telephonically. He sent me very detailed pictures which showed some rust on the door bottoms, but otherwise the car seemed in very good shape. The front seats had been reskinned to very high standard, and it looked to be all there.
My feeling is that any 30 year old car which has not been restored is probably going to need a restoration at some point any way. So my goal was to find a car which is reasonably complete and reasonably rust free, and I would restore the vehicle in stages over a three year period, including full re-spray, suspension rebuild and engine rebuild. Although the car I purchased looked very dirty and used, it seemed to fulfill these criteria.
Problem was that the car was in Bologna Italy, and my wife was very pregnant (she gave birth four weeks ago). After a ton of haggling, we settled on a price of EUR 4500 (USD 6000) with delivery to Hungary and export papers arranged. I looked into delivery costs, and you are probably looking at EUR 1000 to deliver a call from Italy to Hungary. As to export papers, I was in negotiations with another dealer in Italy on a C900, and they were asking for EUR 500 for arranging the export papers. Travelling to Italy to check out the car and stay a night would probably have been bout EUR 500 on top of that. So I was figuring that I was buying the car for EUR 3000 (USD 4000), with the transport and export papers costing about EUR 1500 (USD 2000). I did not have time to travel to Bologna given our recent addition to the family, so I decided to take a leap of faith. We agreed on a down payment, and the dealer brought the car to Budapest where we agreed I would pay the rest of the purchase price.
The dealer arrived yesterday, and I got to look at the car close up for the first time (pictures attached).
First the good:
- The body is incredibly rust free. Absolutely no rust anywhere on the hood, wheel arches, trunk and all the other usual external body areas. There were scratches and dents here and there, but nothing detrimental. Also no rust on the hood underside.
- The only rust on the top part of the car is on the door bottoms – some bubling, but easily fixable according to my Saab indy.
- The interior is in reasonably good shape. The front seats are in excellent shape, the rear seats are very dry but no rips.
- The engine is sweet as a nut. It turns, breaks, rides, and handles great. You could tell that the car was well maintained mechanically – new quality break lines, and the engine bay was generally very clean.
- The car is complete – all the SPG panels are there and in good shape.
- Electric windows and sunroof works a treat.
- The gear box does not crunch much. The only crunch I really heard in the forward gears was just a little mechanical resistance when down shifting from third to second. I believe the shifter needs to be realigned. If I do not push the gear lever all the way to the right when putting into reverse, then there sometimes is a bit of a crunch.
The bad:
- Unfortunately there is rot on the bottom of the car. Very odd, but it seems to be almost completely just on one side – the driver’s side. The passenger side is absolutely perfect with not so much as surface rust.
- The driver’s side rear floor pan seems to have been badly repaired – no more rust, but I think we will have to tear it apart and do it properly. Panels have just been tack welded in place. Pretty sloppy.
- There is rust in the transmission tunnel lip on the driver’s side. This will need to be cut out and re-welded. I understand that there are repair panels that can be purchased for this purpose.
- There is rust on the rear shock mounts. Not sure how bad yet – when we start pealing away, it may be just a little rust – may be a lot of rust. We will only know when we start tearing into it.
- There is a little rust on the spare wheel well.
- It seems at some point the car was converted to run on LPG. the trunk interior trim will need to be replaced (my saab guy has an appropriate donor for this, so no big deal). Also, I know of a company that rebuilds wiring looms at reasonable cost in Hungary, so this will be the back up option.
- I was fully expecting the wiring loom to be dry rotted being a 1985, and of course this was the case. We will need to do a full wiring loom replacement – my indy also said this should not be too big of a deal for him, and he should have a good donor wiring loom in stock.
- The headline was badly replaced some time ago – I will likely have to rip it out and replace.
None of the gauges work other than the speedo. I guess this is as a result of the wiring loom being dry rotted.
- The axle on one side needs replacing. Of course all the regular bushings also need to be replaced.
- The radiator grill is cracked. The spoiler lip is ripped in the middle.
- The tires are also a bit cracked and need to be changed – not the end of the world, but an expense nonetheless.
When the rust issues came to light, I almost did not buy the car and was close to deciding to forgo the deposit (EUR 1500). But sometimes cars find you and are meant to be in your possession. Somehow I feel this was the case with the SPG. I know this was the case with respect to my 99 Turbo and 9000 Aero.
Am posting this in two parts - please see below for continuation