BSI202 SS manifold?

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99Super
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BSI202 SS manifold?

Postby 99Super » Thu Dec 01, 2016 11:50 am

Are there any real performance gains from a multi-tube (bundle ‘o snakes) header for the BSI202?

http://www.rbmperformance.com/lng_EN_sr ... alves.html

Here’s why I ask:
I’ve been looking for a replacement turbo for Frank after blowing the 87 9000 turbo that was in the car for the last 10 or 12 years. This year I used the turbo from our old wrecked 88 9000, but it doesn’t seem to have the same kick as the old one.
I’ve been finding some interesting options out there, with the $800 Turbonetics T3s looking like a pretty good option.
Then I find the 900 header *with* turbo on ebay. The turbo is a Swedish Dynamics “Red” series turbo.

That should solve my “turbo problem” AND get me a cool header! Right??

Nope. The issue is, about 5 minutes after I hit the “Buy” button, I realized that the #4 exhaust tube will impact my starter and oil return line. You see, I’m using a BSI201 block with a B234 head.

So, in order to use these beautiful headers, I’d need to build a new short block and even the cheapest option (a new BSI202 block and swap everything over) is still going to run me $3-400 by the time machine work is done. If I want to build a whole new engine to keep my current one useable for another car, now I’m at $1000 with pistons, bearings, etc. I’m open to suggestions for pistons, BTW!! Then there’s the Tundra rod option! OK, now I’m at $1500. Then I might as well get the eEuro flywheel and go from T5.2 to T5.5…it’s starting to snowball…

So, is the super-cool header worth the work/$$, or do I sell it, keep the turbo, and just run it like that?

John

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Crazyswede
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Re: BSI202 SS manifold?

Postby Crazyswede » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:32 pm

All I have seen with turbo headers so far is that they look nice and offer no real performance gain in the hp ranges that most people are running. Dennis's crazy setup is probably an exception but he has a lot going on with that setup. Perhaps if you are getting into the 300-500 hp range they start to make a difference? but I have seen plenty of builds where the stock log manifold provided enough performance to yield gearbox breaking numbers. The bigger bang for the buck coming from a wise choice in the turbo design.
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Re: BSI202 SS manifold?

Postby hutch » Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:04 pm

I'll echo what Crazyswede said, I think there are plenty of other places to spend money on a c900 before the exhaust manifold becomes a bottleneck. I certainly wouldn't redo most of the powerplant just to fit one. Luckily I'll bet you could sell the manifold on to someone else that doesn't feel the same way over on Saabcentral or similar ;)

If you are taking any and all suggestions I'll throw in a vote for a mitsubishi turbo, I like the T3 for what it is, but its pretty ancient technology at this point. Since you are obviously capable of some fab work you could definitely make one of the TD04s from a Volvo work pretty easily, I also really love my TE05 that was upgraded with the 16g wheel. I'm mildly debating seeing what it would take to run a T7 TD04, partly because I'm looking for a nice winter project, but mostly because I think it would be a nice fit with a T5 c900. I think any of those would have a huge amount of midrange that would work well for the hillclimbs you seem to do. And then of course you can get real big with a GT28 or bigger, but you're talking a whole other level of work needed...

Its also totally subjective and stupid, but you literally could not pay me money to put on a different manifold and lose the c900 burble :thumbsup:

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Re: BSI202 SS manifold?

Postby 99Super » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:36 pm

Yeah, you're both right. I really only needed a better turbo and got distracted by shiny objects. :rolleyes:
I've been looking for an excuse to build a full-on bottom end, but my current engine is working really well. So, yeah, shiny manifold is for sale.

Thanks for the tips on the 900 TD04. Those always seemed oddball enough that I didn't want to get into them. It's not like I was going to find one at my local wrecker. I've also been looking at the Gt2860rs, etc, but I'm kind of stuck with the T3 flange. I don't think I could use an adapter due to clearance to the radiator, and lots more fab that that I don't want to do. Besides, the fast spool-up (that I love in my 9000) may be bad for the long=term longevity of the trans.

The car has always been about bolt-on, stock Saab bits. A car Saab could have built in 1985, but I'm starting to get beyond that (it all started with Luke's custom bits). I'll bolt on the turbo that came with the manifold and go from there.

John

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Re: BSI202 SS manifold?

Postby squaab99t » Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:31 pm

99Super wrote: I've also been looking at the Gt2860rs, etc, but I'm kind of stuck with the T3 flange. I don't think I could use an adapter due to clearance to the radiator, and lots more fab that that I don't want to do. Besides, the fast spool-up (that I love in my 9000) may be bad for the long=term longevity of the trans.

The car has always been about bolt-on, stock Saab bits. A car Saab could have built in 1985, but I'm starting to get beyond that (it all started with Luke's custom bits). I'll bolt on the turbo that came with the manifold and go from there.

John

Stuck with a T3 flange is not so bad. This is what I ran with my GT3071R. Looks like they have the option for the GT2860.
http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant.mv ... y_Code=GTH
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Re: BSI202 SS manifold?

Postby gmreider » Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:30 am

I have a GT28 RS BB that I purchased with the T-3 flange. let me tell you, it will make a lot of power!
and yes, I did start to brake things, but that is all about how much boost you run and how much tire you have on the car. If you have the money, go buy one!
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Re: BSI202 SS manifold?

Postby 99Super » Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:51 am

Dennis, That looks like the same turbo I was looking at here:

http://www.turbokits.com/Turbo_Chargers ... aka_GT28RS)_Ball_Bearing_Turbo/1093/

I raced this car in DSP for almost 20 years so those rules kind of get stuck in your head! :crazy:
That, and not really having any budget...

SMF has really changed what I can do to car and of course is making me spend more money!

Gary, What kinds of things were you breaking?

John

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Re: BSI202 SS manifold?

Postby gmreider » Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:06 pm

Interesting John that you mention DSP. I did not even think there was any possibility of running a 900 T car in that class?
anyway , with the quaife and the GT28 it has been harder on the trans, mostly 2nd synchro on downshifts. On track events, I have cleaned off 3rd and 4th gears on a few occasions. Just powering up hard in 3rd or 4th and then bang. I am going to switch this year to a sport and rally 4 speed gear set and try that.
Last season we had 2 drivers so twice the wear on the car and we had some ring wear and blow-by issues. Then one time the fuel system seemed to go real lean and we melted a piston real quick. all in all the car is really fun to drive and we try to keep up with the competition.

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Re: BSI202 SS manifold?

Postby squaab99t » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:25 pm

99Super wrote:Dennis, That looks like the same turbo I was looking at here:

http://www.turbokits.com/Turbo_Chargers ... aka_GT28RS)_Ball_Bearing_Turbo/1093/

I raced this car in DSP for almost 20 years so those rules kind of get stuck in your head! :crazy:
That, and not really having any budget...

SMF has really changed what I can do to car and of course is making me spend more money!

Gary, What kinds of things were you breaking?

John


Link did not connect. I bought my last turbo from Turbokits. GTX3067R, no drama, came directly from Garrett in Cali, and a better price than ATP.

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Re: BSI202 SS manifold?

Postby squaab99t » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:42 pm

gmreider wrote:Then one time the fuel system seemed to go real lean and we melted a piston real quick. all in all the car is really fun to drive and we try to keep up with the competition.


Injector capacity too low? I run 42 lbs/hr and it is too low as I am maxing out the duty above 85% per the datalogs.

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Re: BSI202 SS manifold?

Postby 99Super » Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:34 pm

Dennis, the Turbokits unit is on sale for $953.70.

Gary, What sort of HP/boost levels are you running? I have yet to break anything, and don't want to start.

99's and 900 are both in DSP, except for the SPGs, they are in FSP. Go figure.
Unfortunately, the 99 and 900 are both on different lines, so no update/backdate. T5 not allowed.
Moving to the 16V forced me into SMF.

John

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Re: BSI202 SS manifold?

Postby gmreider » Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:19 am

I was running 14 PSI to start and in 2015 moved up to 18 PSI . All with a modest 6800 redline. several places I run right up on the rev limiter and feather it to make a corner without up and down shifting again.
There is a big difference in Kick with the 4 extra PSI in boost.
This year I am going with forged pistons and Swain coating and trying "Lukes" Toyota rods and dyno time with Jordan P before I track the car anywhere.

About the injectors: yes I was running the stock red top NG 900 / 99-93 T-5 injectors. Will not repeat that !

SMF is a tough class here in the east for a SAAB. Lots of Honda cars that weigh 400-500 pounds less. And then there are the 380 wheel HP VW GTI cars. Still The SAAB is a treat to drive.
The Honda guys keep telling me to come to the "dark side" and buy a Honda. Not just yet !!

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Re: BSI202 SS manifold?

Postby squaab99t » Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:58 pm

99Super wrote:Dennis, the Turbokits unit is on sale for $953.70.

John

That is a pretty good price with the turbine housing. 20 years ago I paid $700 for a T3-T4 hybrid journal bearing from TEC

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Re: BSI202 SS manifold?

Postby squaab99t » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:37 am

gmreider wrote:This year I am going with forged pistons and Swain coating and trying "Lukes" Toyota rods and dyno time with Jordan P before I track the car anywhere.

About the injectors: yes I was running the stock red top NG 900 / 99-93 T-5 injectors. Will not repeat that !



Sounds like a nice rebuild.
What injectors and rates did you choose or have you?


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