1st SAAB rally car in Greece. ..........I hope

[Geoff]

You can put the head on but its a lot of work. It also doesn't solve your water pump problem...

[fulviacorsa]

here is the link to that thread and the photos of the H head on the B motor:

I saw this, thanks but isn't worth the time to do this modification and the most important it doesn't solve the water pump problem as Geoff correctry said.
The only way to use this link is the photos. The local federation rules,said that you can support a rally car engine modification with photos of the same mod in the same model somewere in the globe, so a photo of the red 99 with the 16v engine is a good evidence.
Anyway I'm almost sure that the 900 16v turbo engine will be my next rally engine. Isn't fair to compete in the historic racing with a 96' engine but the same time the Escort's and Porsche's uses such a kind of new made competition parts that only opticaly are the same with the period one's, made it with exotic material and costs a fortune as well.
I'd like to brake this principal with the lovely Saab (I hope) and change the competiton panel at least here in Greece.
Tha car has all the ingridience to be one of the most competitive car for the pontium.
I hope to found the help I neeed here. Sorry for my english. I'm trying hard to be understantable
So questions:
1. Does it fit (16v turbo) in the 99 front place
2. Is the gearbox the same with the B engines
3. Are out there any source for competition parts (preferably budget) and also gearbox infos for rally use
4. Any advice for the mounting of the engine
5. I have a set of SPAX crypton socks ( I use the same for the Fulvia Gr.4, with good results like in the tought Acropolis rally), so what kind of springs are you recomment for pure rally use (gravel mainly). Unfortunately, change of the socks mounting point not permmited.
6. I have a Haltec reprogrammable ECU with all the sensores availabe for the project.
7. Somewere was written that the 900 rear axle is wider and recommented. Is that true ??
8. Can I use the 9000 wheel hubs with the ventilated disks (are mounting point the same?? )
9. I have a Phantom Grip LSD that I have used also in another car with good results.

That's for start. Any comment is welcome

Christos
www.carestoration.gr

[Crazyswede]

1. Does it fit (16v turbo) in the 99 front place

A 16v turbo engine can be fitted into a 99 engine bay without modifying the engine bay or firewall at all. The problem is that you will not be able to change any belts without pulling the engine from the car. So most people do one of two things....1) Use a sledge hammer or Porta Power to push the firewall back an inch or two to create clearance for the engine, or 2) cut out a portion of the stock firewall and weld in a new panel...Luke did this on both of his cars.

2. Is the gearbox the same with the B engines
Yes, a 16v turbo engine can be bolted onto a 4 speed. However if you get the front cover off of a 1980 or later Saab 99 4 speed you can put it on a 5 speed and then the 5 speed will bolt right onto the Saab 99 engine mount. For the rear mounts you can either put the appropriate engine brackets on or you can just drill new holes and run the older 900 "Barrel" style mounts.


3. Are out there any source for competition parts (preferably budget) and also gearbox infos for rally use
Luke makes a steel differential cover which he is currently taking orders for, He also has a nice tall rally style shifter. Scanwest or MSS used to sell rally springs, but there are not too many Saab specific rally parts available. Most people end up making their own or adapting something. A stock 900 turbo engine with a properly chosen turbo, good fuel system, and a lighter flywheel can put out a lot of good low end torque without going crazy with modifications. If you use the head off of a later car (1995 on etc) and do a little porting and matching you can get some big improvements in flow and power.


4. Any advice for the mounting of the engine
Solid mounts all around will provide much better power to the wheels at a cost of increased cabin vibration and interior noise. Some people use stock mounts, some people use a sold front with stock rear, some people use delrin or aluminum up front with either stacked hockey pucks in the rear or aluminum blocks

5. I have a set of SPAX crypton socks ( I use the same for the Fulvia Gr.4, with good results like in the tought Acropolis rally), so what kind of springs are you recomment for pure rally use (gravel mainly). Unfortunately, change of the socks mounting point not permmited.
You can still buy the double eyelet style shocks that the 99 uses up front...only they are not listed for a 99. We believe they are the same as an american Chevy S10....which you could then send out to Bilstein motorsport for a rally valving. You will want to reinforce the upper shock mounts and the lower shock mount on the A arm. You will also want to box the A arms to increase their strength and thickness. You may have to search for some rally springs or get the spring rate from this site and have some custom ones made up.


6. I have a Haltec reprogrammable ECU with all the sensores availabe for the project.
7. Somewere was written that the 900 rear axle is wider and recommented. Is that true ??
I think its a little bit wider. The advantage of the 900 rear axle is that it allows you to run the 900 rear shocks which use a post mount on top and a cross bolt on the bottom vs post mounts top and bottom.
8. Can I use the 9000 wheel hubs with the ventilated disks (are mounting point the same?? )
No. But you can put the later Saab 900 hubs on...anything between 1988 and 1993 will be the newer Saab brake rotor and caliper style. The parking brake will also act on the rear with this brake setup.

9. I have a Phantom Grip LSD that I have used also in another car with good results.
The phantom grip is better then nothing but if you are really going to try and be competitive spend the money and get either a quaiffe, or a clutch pack limited slip. We did a group buy with Gripper located in England a year or two ago. The units are very similar to the original Saab ones but have some improvements....such as the ability to mount in a 4 speed or 5 speed transmission and the ability to be set to gravel or tarmac. The other option is a unit that Jorgen Ericsson sells...talk to Luke about this unit.

[Geoff]

1) this is the firewall modified to fit the 16v 900 engine

and in the car

Bigger firewall mod:


3) a cheap way to get gearing better for rally is to use a 5 speed transmission from a 900 and use the 4 speed primary drive gears and chain in the 5spd transmission. The primary drive was converted from gear to chain in '77 or '78. Since your car has a turbo drivetrain it probably has the chain drive primary. This will give you closer gearing. Many of the 99 competition parts are either for sale on this website or have been discussed here. A lot of times people just get things from other cars and make them work...

5) These are the upper shock mount reinforcements that SAAB used to sell in their Sport and Rally catalog. They bolt on to the upper shock mount and then you bolt them to the inside of the inner fender.


8) using the '88 to '93 900 front hubs will allow you to put 9000 calipers and rotors on if you want. You'll also want to get a '88 to '93 rear axle so you have the same wheel bolt pattern.
You can also use the '86 to '87 front hubs and vented rotor and get a Wilwood caliper that essentially bolts right on. You could use the stock rear calipers or convert to a Wilwood caliper with an adapter (check the for sale section on this website, Luke had some made at one point but sold them all).
Rear racing caliper with adapter:


fronts:


9) I used a Phantom Grip on my car (worn out non-turbo engine). It was OK but not as good as a real limited slip.
Quaife here:
http://www.abbottracing.com/product/900%20Chassis/Now%20Available%20Ex-Stock%20-%20Limited%20Slip%20Differential%20%28SAAB%20C900%29/
Gripper diffs we had made. All made to order but are plate type (better for rally). Not listed on website, you'll have to contact Gripper (his name is Tom) and request he build one:
http://www.racecar.co.uk/gripper/

[fulviacorsa]

1 But you can put the later Saab 900 hubs on...anything between 1988 and 1993 will be the newer Saab brake rotor and caliper style. The parking brake will also act on the rear with this brake setup.

Is essential to use the '88 to '93 model ?? The one I found is MY 97. Is any restriction ?? Brakes,calipers, wheel pattern ?? Is the ' 97 hhomologated ??

another question. What the turbo pressure in the normal engine

Thanks

[Geoff]

'97 is a totally different car, it has struts. People call the '94-'98 900 the NG900 (Next Generation) but someone here told me that NG actually stands for "No Good" The brakes won't fit, wheel pattern is different (5 x 110 vs. 4 x 114.3), essentially everything is different.

Boost pressure on a 99T was about 7psi (.5bar) in the US and 9 or 10 psi (.65 to .7 bar) outside the US. I think this was due to different gasoline at the time. The 16v turbo from a 900 is around 12.5 psi (.85 bar) stock but people run more than that.

[max]

My '97 NG had parts falling off of it before it even left Sweden.

[fulviacorsa]

Thanks guys it's clear for the hubs.
I spent more than 6 hours reading posts related to gearboxes. Beleive me or not I'm lost. Too mutch variations. I deside to buy a rally gearbox or to build one in a local shop (he buid one for my other cars with big sucsess . Each gearset costs me 1800 eurosplus 850 for the gear/pinion) and he has all the appropriate mashinery and knowledge.

So, I have a 5 speed gearbox and I need the gear ratios for rally use. For the local tracks I use gear/pinion ratio 5,125 but I have 14'' wheels.
Is there is any source to buy one ? since is the most essential part for a rally car.
Sorry guys, I'm not trying to brake your b......s but I have no knowledge for this car and no time to read all related forums, so if you think that I spend your time I'll stop asking.

Later tonight I saw another post in this forum with some more details for the rally gearbox. I saw speedparts gears. looks ok for 3700 euros but if someone give me the gear tooths (like 16/33, 24/27) I'll ask my mechanic the estimate cost to build one.
Thanks anyway

[Crazyswede]

Thanks guys it's clear for the hubs.
I spent more than 6 hours reading posts related to gearboxes. Beleive me or not I'm lost. Too mutch variations. I deside to buy a rally gearbox or to build one in a local shop (he buid one for my other cars with big sucsess . Each gearset costs me 1800 eurosplus 850 for the gear/pinion) and he has all the appropriate mashinery and knowledge.

So, I have a 5 speed gearbox and I need the gear ratios for rally use. For the local tracks I use gear/pinion ratio 5,125 but I have 14'' wheels.
Is there is any source to buy one ? since is the most essential part for a rally car.
Sorry guys, I'm not trying to brake your b......s but I have no knowledge for this car and no time to read all related forums, so if you think that I spend your time I'll stop asking.

Later tonight I saw another post in this forum with some more details for the rally gearbox. I saw speedparts gears. looks ok for 3700 euros but if someone give me the gear tooths (like 16/33, 24/27) I'll ask my mechanic the estimate cost to build one.
Thanks anyway

The strongest gearboxes available for the 99's and 900's was the 4 speed box that Saab made back in the day. It had big gears like those found on Speedparts, it had a big limited slip diff with custom ring and pinion, it had a stronger case and it had 4 drive chains in the primary gear housing. As I recall they never blew up one of these boxes. Unfortunately these boxes are quite rare and if you can find one expect to shell out some serious cash for one. That being said a later gearbox from say 90 to 93 (5 speed) with the bigger pinion bearing and some solid inner axle drivers along with a good limited slip diff will be quite strong. These gearboxes can handle a good deal of power as long as you drive intelligently. If you are constantly doing red-line RPM burnouts in 1st gear it won't last long.

[Geoff]

I got this information of this site and saved it to my computer a while back:

The gear ratios for the rally gear box that SAAB sold was
1st gear: 2.20
2nd gear: 1.53
3rd gear: 1.22
4th gear: 1.0

The ring/pinion was available in two sizes, 6:31 and 7:34. I think the 7:34 is very rare only available to factory teams (?). I'd go with the 6:31 if I had the chance. The 7:34 ring/pinion was so big that the gearbox case had to be modified to fit it!

They sold these for the 4 speed gearboxes but didn't make much for the 5spd boxes.

Also don't forget that the SAAB has a primary drive gearset (transfers power from the clutch shaft to the transmission input shaft) and you can use other primary drive gearsets to help get different ratios. Its like having two ring/pinions (one being the primary drive gears and the other being at the differential).

primary drive gears:


See here for diagrams and of the 5spd (very similar to the 4spd, just an extra gear) and the primary gears (look for the chains)
http://www.saabrally.com/downloads/SAAB-900-5-Speed-Technical-Training-Manual.pdf

The strongest gearbox case that was made was one of the 4spd cases. Since your car has a turbo engine it might have that strong 4spd case. Take a look at it and you might want to use that with a custom 4spd gearset. Look here to identify your gearbox case:
http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136416

If you want to have custom gears made (I think its great!) keep in mind that the stock geraboxes are known to be weak. So you'll want to make things stronger. For the gears this is done by making them wider, getting rid of the synchromesh, and going with dog engagement.
You can see how much wider the Speedparts gears are:


And dog vs. synchro:


You can also use the 5spd gearbox and put the primary drive gears from the 4spd into it. That would make the gearing shorter overall (like putting in a ring/pinion) but the distance between the gears wont be as quick as custom built gears. But that's what I use on my car.

Look at this graph:

The gear set on the left ("S&R 31:30 primary 6:31 R&P) would be the gear ratios posted above. The gear set labeled "Geoff's" is a 5spd transmission with a 4spd primary drive.

[fulviacorsa]

Thanks Geoff
I have to read carefully your post.
I'm starting the research for a 4 speed gearbox. I'll give to my mecanic the ratios and I'll let you know what he will suggest me.
Lot to do now

[Geoff]

Take some pictures of your gearbox and get the number off the tag on top in front of the clutch. Then we'll be able to see if you have a gear drive or chain drive primary.

[SaabsBreakDown]

So i can do 65 or so in 2nd gear in my rally car with a 900 turbo 5 speed from 1983, is that probably the far right one on your chart? I'm estimating about 7100 rpm's at this speed but I don't have the tach wired up

[Geoff]

According to my spreadsheet if you have a 45606 box ('83 turbo) and the same diameter tires (typical rally tires) then 64mph would be at 7000 rpm and 65 would be at 7100 rpm. So your estimate is pretty good

[Jordan]

I'm planning on using a medium 5/6 combo in a '91 5-speed that should be a good compromise between some low competition gears 1-3 and a decent 5th gear for driving around. I have the benefit of being able to really ring out the engine compared to say Luke's turbo motah which has a pretty conservative rev limit due to stock lifter configuration and massive low-end torques.

I made a quick excel plot of RPM vs. speed with this setup. I removed the speeds under the possible acceleration shift points for clarity and don't really expect to be shifting at 8500rpm ..more 7500ish.