The Ideal 99 Build

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RadioFlyer
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The Ideal 99 Build

Postby RadioFlyer » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:41 pm

So I've been pining for a 99 notch for quite some time now. Want it to be more a driver than a museum piece or a rally car. I've found that my taste is to keep the original look, but I'm open to tasteful Saab mods underneath. Example... The '80 900t project that I've been poking at for the past couple of years - Clean Saab look both outside and in. Original engine still running strong, but suspension has made a world of difference - swaybars from a '90 SPG, Koni shocks, and Swedish Dynamics lowering springs. Now it has retained the classic Saab lines, but is really fun to drive.

Enter "The Ideal 99 Build" concept. What would YOU do with an early 99 if you were me? I'm toying with the idea of picking up a rust-free '70 99. LOVE the really old look. But I've heard that the old Triumph engines were junk. I was considering driving it across the country (if the engine will make it that far), and sticking in a 16V turbo engine from an '88 and a 5-spd tranny from an '86.

Can you put sway bars on a 99? Stiffer springs and shocks? What kind would be best for great road feel on a driver?

Is a 16V swap possible in that car? Can you T5 something that early? Would i need to put in a whole new fuel system?

Would a 5-spd tranny be possible in that car? Would it need 900 axles, hubs, brakes, etc? Is this something that is possible or even worth the energy, or is it better off not tackling?

Note: This car has not yet been purchased. Just trying to create a plan of action and figure out if this is something that I would be able to do before spending any money.

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Re: The Ideal 99 Build

Postby SwedeSport » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:00 pm

I have a 71 that I plan to build some day.

I am thinking along those same lines.

Basically the 71 shell, and trim. maintaining the original style interior, but with a cage and good seats.

16v turbo with 900 suspension components. T5.

Street legal but capable of running some racing stuff.

Yes all that can be done.

I like the orange 74 X7 styling. Something like that, with a different rear spoiler, flares more like the airflow kit had, and some cool wheels.

But paint it Polar White.
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RadioFlyer
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Re: The Ideal 99 Build

Postby RadioFlyer » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:31 pm

I've been drooling over that '74 x7 for two years now. It was the inspiration for buying my '80 900t, but I found I have a bit different style. Love the suspension, wheels, and rack in that thing. And can't help but fantasize about the power of a t5ed 16v turbo in such a light car. Gotta do it.

I really like his use of the ducktail too - never liked it on any other car.

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Re: The Ideal 99 Build

Postby DrewP » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:57 am

16V N/A will be indestructible and really make you concentrate on how you take corners. I feel like I'll only ever have an N/A engine in my yellow '73 track car at this point because with a little strategic work you can make the car really light, and there's barely enough room for a radiator in the front as it is, let alone a decent intercooler setup unless you go to a custom radiator, or another crappy side mounted intercooler in the engine compartment like the 900 had.

Good suspension setup for sure. The '75+ cars are much easier to drop C900 suspension into. The front stuff all mounts fine, but you have to make a custom panhard rod and modify the spring perches in the rear to throw a 900 rear axle into a '69-'74 car. If you are OK swapping to later 900 stuff to get the better brake calipers and stronger rear axle that's a good way to go.

Schwartz has some photos of the C900 front anti-roll bar he put in his car. You'll have to mount it, but it can be done. A custom one or something modified from another car could be made to work pretty easily too if you're even a half-way decent fabricator.

For a DD don't go too crazy with wider wheels or anything, the manual steering can be a pain when parking if you run a lot of errands in it.

You can T5 anything you want, but the advantage of the B202 is that pretty much all the T5 sensors will bolt right up. You'll just have to figure out routing the radiator hoses and re-do the engine mounts.

For a 5-speed you'll need a 5-speed shifter console, and the 99 track width is slightly narrower, so you either need to mix and match halfshaft and inner driver parts and maybe diff to make the 99 driveline work with the 900 5-speed, or convert to later suspension and hubs and use 900 halfshafts. I had to cut about 1/2 off one of my halfshafts so it didn't bind during suspension travel with the 900 5-speed in my '73, forgot which one tho. It's in my build thread.

The early Lockheed clutch master moves enough fluid to work fine with the 900 concentric slave cylinder, but you'll have to make a custom line, or adapt a later clutch pedal and master cylinder. I'd vote just have a line made. I drove mine for a little while with just a piece of rubber tubing hose clamped onto the hard lines, there's not much pressure in that circuit.

Awesome project idea, can't wait to see what you come up with!
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Re: The Ideal 99 Build

Postby RadioFlyer » Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:58 am

Thanks Drew, that's exactly what I needed. I don't have much experience as a welder or fabricator, but would love to learn and have some good friends who are willing to teach. Just not sure I have the time to do that much. I would plan onnit being a pretty long- term project, but I've always been of the mindset that I want it to be drivable as quick as possible.

So as far as fabrication goes, to stick in a 16v, 5-spd, and c900 brakes and suspension, the 69-74 probably needs the most work, while '80+ (if you can find one) needs the least because the rear spring perch and firewall is already set up, correct?

The other thing I could totally live with is a turbo B engine in an early 99. I love the one in my '80. And that would probably require a lot less work, right? No need to mod the firewall or engine mounts? Or would that still be necessary? How hard would it be to install CIS and what was in there before?

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Re: The Ideal 99 Build

Postby Sam » Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:42 am

Just want to jump in and support the B engines here. The compactness of these engines is wonderful and they are so lightweight. They were really well built. My vote is for an mss built high revving b-motor which is my current project. Cutting the firewall is a very hard task and these 99s tend to need a lot of work just to get them running, let alone adding on cutting and alteration. Those are my two cents as someone who had aspirations to do a swap on a rusty shell and never made it to completion.
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Re: The Ideal 99 Build

Postby RadioFlyer » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:13 am

Sam wrote:Just want to jump in and support the B engines here. The compactness of these engines is wonderful and they are so lightweight. They were really well built. My vote is for an mss built high revving b-motor which is my current project. Cutting the firewall is a very hard task and these 99s tend to need a lot of work just to get them running, let alone adding on cutting and alteration. Those are my two cents as someone who had aspirations to do a swap on a rusty shell and never made it to completion.


It's funny that you say that because I was combing through forums last night looking for info on sticking in a 16v in a 99 and found one forum that said that a 16V NA engine really doesn't have much more horse power than the H engine - only about 15 hp or something difference. So he was of the mindset to just use the H engine.

Honestly, I think there are a lot more perks behind the 16V, but I have no qualms with the rebuilt turbo B in my '80. Really light, really quick, really fun, love the sound, and it's been very reliable. I don't abuse it or hit high revs, so I'm not worried about blowing the head. And right now, I don't have the space, tools, skills, parts, or time to do the mods for a 16V turbo. Maybe a turbo B-engine is the way to go? Maybe 16V the '80 and stick the B engine from that in the 99?

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Re: The Ideal 99 Build

Postby DrewP » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:32 pm

The firewall can be sledgehammered back enough for the B202 to fit, it's just almost impossible to work on anything on the back of the engine with it in the car.

I believe '75+ has the 900 style rear spring perches and panhard rod mount, someone else should confirm that thought.

Turbo B20 would drop right in.
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Re: The Ideal 99 Build

Postby Geoff » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:18 pm

A '70 is just so cool looking, simple exterior, older looking...

Suspension:
C900 rear axle & trailing arms
C900 front hubs, CV joints, upper a-arms
C900 rear Bilstien shocks (do these fit with the rear axle on a '69-'74?)
99 front Bilstein shocks
C900 lowering springs
You can put the C900 swaybars on

Brakes:
'88+ C900 or use the earlier bits and put on Wilwoods

Transmission:
5spd - Use early C900 inner drivers, C900 CVs, 99 driveshafts

Engine:
Naturally Aspirated B engine
Upgraded cam
Header
Weber DCOE carbs

Wheels:
15" 8 spoke (Shelby, Minilite, Panasport, etc.)

Sort of like this:
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Look at all that room in the engine bay!
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Re: The Ideal 99 Build

Postby RadioFlyer » Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:55 pm

YES!! now we're getting somewhere. I love the look on this one - a '71 on garaget. Lowered suspension, 16v, kept the old school look.

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Re: The Ideal 99 Build

Postby schwartz » Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:49 pm

My -74 has the new panhard mount (c900 fits straight on), I think they changed it 71 or 72. Swap the whole rear suspension to c900 incl. trailing arms, then the newer dampers will fit.
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Re: The Ideal 99 Build

Postby SwedeSport » Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:12 pm

I have been sitting on my 71 99 project for years, gathering parts for a righteous build some day. My intention was always to build the ultimate 99, at least as far as I am concerned.

I rented my first garage/shop because of my obsession with the 71 that was sitting out behind Story's Garage. The shop proprietor allowed me to look around the yard, and I stumbled on the forgotten 99. I always had great plans for the car, but no real skills, no tools, and most importantly, no money. I gutted out the rotten stuff, and got it stripped to a shell. I began to collect early 99 bits until I had enough of the classic bits to put together a car. I now have the skills and the tools to make something out of it. But I got side tracked by numerous projects along the way, though each and every one of them taught me something,... something that will make creating my "ultimate" 99 possible.


I have been storing it for years, and probably will have to sit for a while longer, but I will get it done, and it will be badass.
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Re: The Ideal 99 Build

Postby Luke » Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:08 pm

SwedeSport wrote:I have been sitting on my 71 99 project for years, gathering parts for a righteous build some day. My intention was always to build the ultimate 99, at least as far as I am concerned.

I rented my first garage/shop because of my obsession with the 71 that was sitting out behind Story's Garage. The shop proprietor allowed me to look around the yard, and I stumbled on the forgotten 99. I always had great plans for the car, but no real skills, no tools, and most importantly, no money. I gutted out the rotten stuff, and got it stripped to a shell. I began to collect early 99 bits until I had enough of the classic bits to put together a car. I now have the skills and the tools to make something out of it. But I got side tracked by numerous projects along the way, though each and every one of them taught me something,... something that will make creating my "ultimate" 99 possible.


I have been storing it for years, and probably will have to sit for a while longer, but I will get it done, and it will be badass.

Just think of everything between as the apprenticeship that has honed your skills enough to finally do the car the way you wanted to.

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Re: The Ideal 99 Build

Postby SwedeSport » Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:43 pm

Luke wrote:
SwedeSport wrote:I have been sitting on my 71 99 project for years, gathering parts for a righteous build some day. My intention was always to build the ultimate 99, at least as far as I am concerned.

I rented my first garage/shop because of my obsession with the 71 that was sitting out behind Story's Garage. The shop proprietor allowed me to look around the yard, and I stumbled on the forgotten 99. I always had great plans for the car, but no real skills, no tools, and most importantly, no money. I gutted out the rotten stuff, and got it stripped to a shell. I began to collect early 99 bits until I had enough of the classic bits to put together a car. I now have the skills and the tools to make something out of it. But I got side tracked by numerous projects along the way, though each and every one of them taught me something,... something that will make creating my "ultimate" 99 possible.


I have been storing it for years, and probably will have to sit for a while longer, but I will get it done, and it will be badass.

Just think of everything between as the apprenticeship that has honed your skills enough to finally do the car the way you wanted to.



Exactly,

That first garage was a 1 car shop, with a dirt floor. There was one light bulb socket in the ceiling that I screwed an outlet adaptor into. I had a small tool set with some basic hand tools. I would have to say that I am a little more capable now. Fabrication and car modification is a hands on thing. You can read all about it on the interwebs, but you really need to get your hands dirty trying to make something in order to learn how. Some of the stuff you build will likely be less than stellar, but you will be making progress toward eventually possessing the skills to build the ideal whatever.
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Re: The Ideal 99 Build

Postby 99Super » Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:06 pm

I finally sold my own 69 99 just because it was so much different than the later cars and adaptations became increasingly difficult.
In other words, the more age between the components, the more difficult it gets to make them fit.

I think before you decide on the "Ideal", you have to decide what YOU want out of the car, then plot out your path from there. What do you want performance-wise? Stock-ish, a fun driver, a mean week-ender or a track-day car? The project also needs to be do-able within your skill set.

If you want to keep it an 8 valve, stick w/ the B20, don't bother going to the B201. Headers and a well-tuned FI system make these cars plenty quick for around town driving.

Because the 99 is so versatile, you can build it any way you want. Drew covered most of the technical issues pretty well...

One note, of you choose to keep the original rear suspension, then an aftermarket sway bar can be used as well as shocks from late 60's Mustangs and Cougars. I found a set of NOS Koni's for my 73 EMS so I left the rear axle intact even though I updated the front brakes to 86 vents.
Also, when swapping brakes/axles, early cars used SAE threads v. Metric in 75> cars. Another adaptation required.

A 900 front sway bar will fit with a bit of work, but it will make the car understeer horribly. Just stick w/ the rear.
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