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Re: Project Loki - 1988 classic SAAB turbo
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:54 pm
by DrewP
So with the AMM unplugged the car should resort the fuel injection to a sort of limp mode, where it injects fuel based only on RPM and throttle position. This can be helpful for diagnosing mechanical problems (rather than fuel injection sensor problems), since a plugged cat will make it misfire badly under load either way.
It will run badly, but if it will run under some load and at higher RPM's with the AMM unplugged that points you to a sensor issue. If it does the same thing it could be mechanical.
You didn't like leave a rag in one of the intercooler pipes, did you? I've done stuff like that too.
Re: Project Loki - 1988 classic SAAB turbo
Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:06 pm
by Adrian Thompson
Quick update. Remove the exhaust and it runs fairly well at idle, light and medium throttle. Success thinks I. So I think I'll unplug the MAF and try that. Opps its still unplugged from last night. Plug it in and it will barely run at all and stalls.
Check the exhaust I removed and it seems perfect, zero obstructions at all.
Pics and vids tomorrow
Re: Project Loki - 1988 classic SAAB turbo
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:35 am
by Adrian Thompson
OK, so as I said last night, I removed the exhaust and it ran the best it's run in over a year. I could actually drive it around the subdivision without slipping the clutch or a bucking bronco impression. When I got back I figured I'd try it with the MAF unplugged again per Drew's suggestion. Guess what, it was still unplugged from the night before. Plug it back in and it won’t run again.
So if you're following it would sort of run, but badly with the exhaust on and the MAF plugged in, but if you unplugged the MAF it would stall. Remove the exhaust and it's running 'well' when the MAF is unplugged, but stalls again when it's plugged in.
Right now I'm thinking it's a MAF issue. The plastic cover fell off when I touched it, so some foreign material could have got into it over the last couple of years. The exhaust is in mint condition, everything looks almost new, other than the studs that sheared when I separated the downpipe from the elbow the other night, every fastener and slip joint came undone with ease. I've never had an easier time.
So, i guess I'm looking for another air meter to try. Anyone got one for sale or return? Also since there doesn't seem to be a blockage in the exhaust I guess the seals on the turbo are gone from the gunk that was coming out of the flange in the video the other day. Si I suppose I need a $50 e-bay T3 rebuild kit then put the whole thing back together. I do have a spare, but unknown turbo I could put on.
Driving it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYqF9Bu0NNAPulling in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu71TZ4sca8Cat is perfect
Pretty much mint exhaust
Shopping list:
Air meter
T3 rebuild kit
Sundry turbo and exhaust manifold gaskets
High temp paint
Thoughts?
P.S. Honestly I'm not a total mechanical ignoramuses. I've built engines, done engine swaps, fitted LSD's to FWD Trans, built one car from two etc. etc. This things is just killing me
Re: Project Loki - 1988 classic SAAB turbo
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:02 pm
by DrewP
If you look inside the AMM is the tiny little 'U' shaped filament broken?
The black plastic cover on top of the AMM, is it a Bosch one, or an aftermarket one, or is the cover blank? I've had aftermarket ones be bad out of the box before.
Re: Project Loki - 1988 classic SAAB turbo
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:06 pm
by 99Super
Adrian Thompson wrote:P.S. Honestly I'm not a total mechanical ignoramuses. I've built engines, done engine swaps, fitted LSD's to FWD Trans, built one car from two etc. etc. This things is just killing me
We've all been there.
John
Re: Project Loki - 1988 classic SAAB turbo
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:16 pm
by Geoff
FYI, the only good way to check the cat that I know of is to hold it up to a bright light and move it around in front of your eye so you can look through a few of the square tubes at a time.
I wouldn't worry too much about the turbo, at least not yet. A bad turbo isn't going to necessarily prevent it from running well (unless maybe it's jammed and there's a dead rodent blocking things). The gasket between the manifold and the turbo tends to leak until things have warmed up and expanded. It doesn't look like there was much oil there, possibly just exhaust gases. I'd call that typical for a C900 turbo.
I would try swapping in another air mass meter. They can fail and make it a real pain to keep running. Every time I've had a failure they've run super rich - black soot from the exhaust and a stink. I seem to remember the oxygen sensor provides mixture feedback to the ECU which then works into the AMM calculation so you could put an O2 sensor in it, a generic one is typically cheap enough.
Re: Project Loki - 1988 classic SAAB turbo
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:44 pm
by Crazyswede
Major vacuum leaks and major intake leaks can cause all the problems you have described too.
Re: Project Loki - 1988 classic SAAB turbo
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:28 pm
by Adrian Thompson
Crazyswede wrote:Major vacuum leaks and major intake leaks can cause all the problems you have described too.
That was my first assumption, not found them. Also if it were just an air leak somewhere why would it behave differently with the MAF connected and disconnected
Geoff wrote:FYI, the only good way to check the cat that I know of is to hold it up to a bright light and move it around in front of your eye so you can look through a few of the square tubes at a time.
I can shine a flash light though it, or hold it up and look through it. Deffinitly not blocked at all, it's in perfect condition
Geoff wrote:I wouldn't worry too much about the turbo, at least not yet. A bad turbo isn't going to necessarily prevent it from running well (unless maybe it's jammed and there's a dead rodent blocking things). The gasket between the manifold and the turbo tends to leak until things have warmed up and expanded. It doesn't look like there was much oil there, possibly just exhaust gases. I'd call that typical for a C900 turbo.
That's great news, I was feeling very depressed at the thought of having to pull the turbo and work on that as well.
Geoff wrote:I would try swapping in another air mass meter. They can fail and make it a real pain to keep running. Every time I've had a failure they've run super rich - black soot from the exhaust and a stink. I seem to remember the oxygen sensor provides mixture feedback to the ECU which then works into the AMM calculation so you could put an O2 sensor in it, a generic one is typically cheap enough.
I started the car and ran it over 2,500rpm per the Bentley manual, then shut off and looked at the MAF, I didn't see the element glowing as it says it should. But again, if it were just dead, why does it change when it's plugged in vs unplugged?
Does anyone have a spare known good MAF to sell?
Re: Project Loki - 1988 classic SAAB turbo
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:30 pm
by Adrian Thompson
BTW, it's not a Bosch MAF, it's an aftermarket one
Re: Project Loki - 1988 classic SAAB turbo
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:41 pm
by hutch
'88 means LH2.2, right? The one with the adjustment dial on the side? If so after looking around I finally found this, it came with my old SPG and the PO said it was rebuilt or checked out by these guys:
Shoot me a PM if you're interested...
Re: Project Loki - 1988 classic SAAB turbo
Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:09 pm
by Crazyswede
Maybe its a Lucas injection car.
Re: Project Loki - 1988 classic SAAB turbo
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:44 pm
by DrewP
I've seen those aftermarket ones before, but the more worrisome part is that protective cover has come loose. It's hard to tell from your photo, but it looks kind of like the electrical contacts are a bit corrode-ey.
Re: Project Loki - 1988 classic SAAB turbo
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:48 pm
by Geoff
We didn't get Lucas cars in the US. Although he does sound like he may have worked on something with Lucas electronics in the past
That "Fuel Injection Corporation USA" unit is probably a rebuilt Bosch part (at least that's why my rebuilt unit was from them).
Re: Project Loki - 1988 classic SAAB turbo
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:32 pm
by Adrian Thompson
Re: Project Loki - 1988 classic SAAB turbo
Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:21 pm
by hutch
Just got back from the post office, I must have just made the deadline or something because they said it should be there on monday. Hopefully this is the final hump to getting the car running!