T5 Wiring Harness Help

THE place for technical discussions concering the construction and preparation of SAABs for all forms of motorsport, Rally, Road Racing, Auto-X etc....
KoogiA17
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:02 pm
Number of Saabs currently owned: 1

Re: T5 Wiring Harness Help

Postby KoogiA17 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:41 am

Luke wrote:Drew my plan for the speed signal (for a non 900 application) was just loop back the tach output (58) to pin 39. The manuals show it as the same type sin wave. If you dont have a speed signal you will get base boost all the time as it effectively thinks that you are not moving. So doing this makes the trionic think that you are going really fast all the time. That way you can get full boost without the need for a speed signal. You won't have limited boost in gear 1 and 2, but who wants that anyway ;)


Won't Trionic think you are in 5th gear all the time? If so, you will get the fuel cut that occurs in 3rd,4th and 5th (when the throttle is closed and engine speed is at 1900 rpm or above) occurring in every gear. Have to turn this off in T5suite.


Jordan wrote:Depends on what your using for a speedo in the car. We used a aftermarket VDO guage in Luke's current rally car driven by the 9000 electronic speedo sensor...or do what Luke said if you're using the mechanical pickup.. or do both and still get rid of the 1st/2nd gear thing boost limit :)...but that could probably be programmed out anyway.


If you set the boost values in the 1st & 2nd gear boost maps higher than the values in the main boost request map, Trionic will use the values in the main map. This effecively switches the limiters off.

User avatar
SwedeSport
Posts: 3026
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:52 am
Number of Saabs currently owned: 5
Location: Pottstown, PA
Contact:

85 900T Street Project

Postby SwedeSport » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:01 am

turbo stephan wrote:
The other thing is, why do you want T5 in the first place if it's slow for tuning on the dyno. If you want to be able to control every aspect I don't see many ways around a motor sport ecu like Motec.

Stephan



Right now the harness is completely out of the car. The original 85 harness crumbled as I removed it. A perfect candidate for the swap. I got a harness from a 96 droptop at the U-pull it yesterday ,the ECU, a DI cassete, injectors and all the sensors for under 50 bucks. I started out my day thinking I was gathering parts for another project. As the day wore on it made sense to just T5 Every 16v turbo project from here out. Can't beat what you get for the money.
Swedesport Motors, Apparel and Accessories for SAAB Junkies.
Http://Facebook.com/swedesportmotors
Swedesportmotors@gmail.com

turbo stephan
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri May 20, 2011 8:11 pm
Number of Saabs currently owned: 3
Location: Beach City

Re: 85 900T Street Project

Postby turbo stephan » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:27 am

SwedeSport wrote:
Right now the harness is completely out of the car. The original 85 harness crumbled as I removed it. A perfect candidate for the swap. I got a harness from a 96 droptop at the U-pull it yesterday ,the ECU, a DI cassete, injectors and all the sensors for under 50 bucks. I started out my day thinking I was gathering parts for another project. As the day wore on it made sense to just T5 Every 16v turbo project from here out. Can't beat what you get for the money.


For sure, if you are already that far and got it for that cheap, why not. It's not that your car will run bad, it'll very likely run better than before. However, for real tuning purposes, T5 has its limitations. You'll need to change maps as the car it came from has different manifolds and thus different air flows. Plus you want to make it run to your liking. There is some good information about changing maps and other T5 stuff on ecuproject.com.

I wanted to implement T5 in my 900t as well. I did lots of research for a while but then got a bit stuck on seeing how all of the different maps in T5 influence themselves and how the adaption comes in as well. Then my Masters thesis had to be written and I had to place everything on the shelve. What I noticed when I was researching is that there are not very many people around who can tell you how everything works in the big picture. For example, if you go to a Eddy current dyno and run the car at steady state how does a change of the fuel and ignition maps changes other maps in T5 and then how does the adaption influence all of this in the long run? I know that they say adaption is only on in closed loop, but if you map closed loop to rich the long term trim in T5 trims the fuel down and at some point you'll run too lean at WOT. This being said, however, I recently learned that you can turn the adaption off which probably helps in the example given above. On the other hand, I also learned that T5 reacts rather slow to changes.

I recently drove in a car that had T5 in it and it was OK. I didn't think it was really fast nor that it run much smoother than my LH 2.4. What I liked was the steadier boost though. Compared to Dennis's 900t with the coil on plug setup and proper tuning, however, it didn't stand a chance. Dennis's car runs phenomenally good thanks to lots of research and proper tuning that was done. I still have to come along a 900 that runs better.

Either way, as said above you already have your stuff so you might as well put it in. Also, there are lots of good people on this forum and this might help to get things sorted out. When you put the DI casette in your car SwedeSport, you have to paint it silver though ;) .

Stephan

User avatar
SwedeSport
Posts: 3026
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:52 am
Number of Saabs currently owned: 5
Location: Pottstown, PA
Contact:

Re: 85 900T Street Project

Postby SwedeSport » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:15 pm

turbo stephan wrote:
When you put the DI casette in your car SwedeSport, you have to paint it silver though ;) .

Stephan


I was actually considering removing the paint and polishing it just like the valve cover, but I should probably wait til I know its good. Imagine my dismay when I discover the 11 hours spent stripping, sanding, and spit shining was all for naught. Considering their perpensity to shit the bed, maybe I should just leave it red and be happy with that. Not to mention that red means HP.

Seriously, I am more concerned with making a good running car. Not so much with making 400 HP in this one. I would be ecstatic with 200 ponies out of it. I hear that the fuel efficiency increases slightly with the T5. So considering that stock 85 specs were good enough, anything above and beyond that is just a bonus.

As far as tuning it, I think being on this forum puts us all within range of all the tuning skills most of us will ever need. Guys like Luke, and Jordan, and others blow my mind with all the knowlege about this stuff. I am just a back yard hack when it comes to these cars and I rely on everyone elses collective ability to get me in the ballpark.

That being said I have enough faith to jump into something like this.

Considering how far apart the car is at the moment, it could be a while til I can get a driving impression with the Touring units. I'm sure it will be a huge improvement over the original rears and KYB gas adjust units that it had.
Swedesport Motors, Apparel and Accessories for SAAB Junkies.
Http://Facebook.com/swedesportmotors
Swedesportmotors@gmail.com

User avatar
squaab99t
Posts: 1121
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:43 pm
Number of Saabs currently owned: 4
Location: Shoreline Wa

Re: 85 900T Street Project

Postby squaab99t » Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:06 pm

SwedeSport wrote:
turbo stephan wrote:
The other thing is, why do you want T5 in the first place if it's slow for tuning on the dyno. If you want to be able to control every aspect I don't see many ways around a motor sport ecu like Motec.

Stephan



Right now the harness is completely out of the car. The original 85 harness crumbled as I removed it. A perfect candidate for the swap. I got a harness from a 96 droptop at the U-pull it yesterday ,the ECU, a DI cassete, injectors and all the sensors for under 50 bucks. I started out my day thinking I was gathering parts for another project. As the day wore on it made sense to just T5 Every 16v turbo project from here out. Can't beat what you get for the money.

The price for the hardware you can not beat. Building a harness from scratch is not an easy task. A lot or research to wire type, size the wire, sheilding, connectors, sealing, wire installation. All this take time and a fair amount of cost to do right.
The problem is you get what you pay for on the software to communicate to the box. What did you pay for that? Zero, nada. The T5 was not made to be tuned. It was made to be factory set and sent out the door. Not to say you can't work around it and get it to "work". What you do get are the maps that will get you up and running that day.
It is all about the tune, and my car did not always run exceptionally well. I looked at my laptop files and I have hundreds for maps and datalogs dating back to 2006.
It has taken along time to get there. I started off as a hack too, but with some education and tools: 2 day EFI class. Three separate dyno sessions totaling 14 hours. Getting pulled over by the Sheriff while on a hot lap. :dunno: Asked if I was done with the laptop? I'm finally there... or am I?

Maybe the mods can drag this T5 portion over to the T5 thread?

User avatar
Luke
Site Admin
Posts: 3387
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:12 pm

Re: 85 900T Street Project

Postby Luke » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:20 pm

I agree with the comments that LH 2.4 is "good enough" for basic duty, I have that on my street car and it runs great, dead reliable and returns good fuel mileage.

When I built the rally car I weighed the pro and cons of the standard alone vs trionic. At the time the trionic stuff was still pretty expensive, used ECU's were selling for about $200 bucks, Good used DI's for about $150 etc. Not to mention T5 suite hadnt been invented....
I made the decision to go with electromotive standalone and think it was the right way to go. The hardware ended up being cheaper than all the trionic parts combined, it came in one box with clear instructions on how to wire it all up, not to mention the local dyno guy was already familiar with the software. Its been a great system and was money well spent.

However, I do think that the tide has turned and if I was faced with the same decision today I would go with the trionic. I've only been playing around with T5 suite for a little while, but I already have a pretty good understanding of the maps and I am finding it fairly easy to work with. To be able to do "real time" tuning will require the can-bus hardware, but they arent that expensive so I'll pick one up at some point.
Bottom line: The fact that you can pickup a system with the level of sophisication of trionic for under $50 (No lies, I was there with Jason at the yard, he pulled all components, kept it clipped to harness and walked out the door for $45) that just so happens to have a direct on-plug coil system that will drop right down onto the B202. That is programmable more or less to our hearts desire with a modest investment... well thats just cool. The crank trigger is the main hurdle, but squaab has a nice solution that is tested, or I'll pursue the flywheel route if others are interested.

User avatar
Luke
Site Admin
Posts: 3387
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:12 pm

Re: 85 900T Street Project

Postby Luke » Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:27 pm

[quote="squaab99t] Maybe the mods can drag this T5 portion over to the T5 thread?[/quote]

I moved this here to keep Jasons 85 project thread a little more on topic

User avatar
SwedeSport
Posts: 3026
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:52 am
Number of Saabs currently owned: 5
Location: Pottstown, PA
Contact:

Re: T5 Wiring Harness Help

Postby SwedeSport » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:39 pm

I picked up a CPS bracket kit from Squaabworks. It is a really sweet piece of hardware. It will work perfectly for my race car project. I am very interested in the flywheel timed concept. Keeping my AC is an absolute must in my 85.

Reading into those T5 threads is leading me to believe that the O2 sensor from the Trionic car is necessary as well?

I won't be able to use my polished valve cover afterall. The DI cassette doesn't fit on it.
Swedesport Motors, Apparel and Accessories for SAAB Junkies.
Http://Facebook.com/swedesportmotors
Swedesportmotors@gmail.com

hutch
Posts: 775
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:49 pm
Number of Saabs currently owned: 2
Location: Lancaster, PA

Re: T5 Wiring Harness Help

Postby hutch » Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:35 pm

SwedeSport wrote:Reading into those T5 threads is leading me to believe that the O2 sensor from the Trionic car is necessary as well?

According to what Jordan told me they are the same sensor just with all four wires in one connector versus 2 connectors in a c900. He's putting c900 connectors on my harness but apparently it doesn't matter much which you choose.

SwedeSport wrote:I won't be able to use my polished valve cover afterall. The DI cassette doesn't fit on it.

I'm pretty sure you can take off the top of the DIC if you were to polish it so that you could switch it over to a new one.

I assume you are using an old style valve cover? You could probably do some trimming to get clearance in the DIC.

turbo stephan
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri May 20, 2011 8:11 pm
Number of Saabs currently owned: 3
Location: Beach City

Re: 85 900T Street Project

Postby turbo stephan » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:03 am

Luke wrote:However, I do think that the tide has turned and if I was faced with the same decision today I would go with the trionic. I've only been playing around with T5 suite for a little while, but I already have a pretty good understanding of the maps and I am finding it fairly easy to work with. To be able to do "real time" tuning will require the can-bus hardware, but they arent that expensive so I'll pick one up at some point.
Bottom line: The fact that you can pickup a system with the level of sophisication of trionic for under $50 (No lies, I was there with Jason at the yard, he pulled all components, kept it clipped to harness and walked out the door for $45) that just so happens to have a direct on-plug coil system that will drop right down onto the B202. That is programmable more or less to our hearts desire with a modest investment... well thats just cool. The crank trigger is the main hurdle, but squaab has a nice solution that is tested, or I'll pursue the flywheel route if others are interested.


I'm looking forward to see what's going to happen. The ideal thing would be if we have more people running T5 and then being able to tune it on a dyno like an aftermarket ECU. That would be really cool. I'll print out the Trionic documentation from ecuproject and see if I can learn a bit more of how all of the maps and adaption tables work together. I'd be happy to assist here...

Stephan

User avatar
Jordan
Site Admin
Posts: 4057
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:38 pm
Number of Saabs currently owned: 6
Location: Vernon, CT
Contact:

Re: T5 Wiring Harness Help

Postby Jordan » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:16 am

I'm building harnesses for a couple of people just to see how it goes and I'm pretty intimately familiar with them now. They really aren't that complicated once you get over the mess of wires and connectors. It is time-consuming. Depending on what they are going into, CPS mount or sensors you are using, there are lots of variations which make it hard to make one "universal" plug-and-play modified harness.

That said, I'm really impressed by the level of sophistication and relative ease of installation of the system to wake up an old car. I'd definitely run it in my current driver, even in stock form.

99sven
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 7:14 pm

Re: T5 Wiring Harness Help

Postby 99sven » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:27 pm

It is very time consuming. But if you take your time and check and recheck your work via every pin out you will not have any big surprises when you turn the ignition. It is a wonderful system for a C900--but you must have the ability to connect to the ecu and change the maps to fit your application. For example, I had to really increase the cold cranking settings to get my car to fire in the winter. It helps to be very computer savvy or have a local who knows his way around T5 suite. It is far from plug and play.
Gregg Cronn

99sven
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat May 26, 2007 7:14 pm

O2 sensors

Postby 99sven » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:43 pm

"According to what Jordan told me they are the same sensor just with all four wires in one connector versus 2 connectors in a c900. He's putting c900 connectors on my harness but apparently it doesn't matter much which you choose."

Really? That is news to me? Trionic will throw a code if the pre-heater funtion is not working. I was running a T5 O2 sensor from the beginning. Why would you run the C900 when the wiring is there for the Trionic sensor? The O2 sensor is integral to T5. My O2 sensor was bad and I had poor milage and other issues until I changed out the sensor. Maybe I am wrong but I don't know why you would want to go with the C900 sensor.
Gregg Cronn

User avatar
Jordan
Site Admin
Posts: 4057
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:38 pm
Number of Saabs currently owned: 6
Location: Vernon, CT
Contact:

Re: T5 Wiring Harness Help

Postby Jordan » Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:46 am

The T5 4-pin 02 sensor has the sensor output, reference ground, 12v power and pre-heater ground which is triggered by the ecu.

The c900 configuration has a 2-pin, 12v power and pre-heater trigger (which might be constant ground on LH) and then a separate 1-pin connector for the sensor with shielding for reference ground.

The reason not to use the t5 o2 sensor is because it's a waste of money if you already have a few good working units. They are the exact same sensor.

User avatar
squaab99t
Posts: 1121
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:43 pm
Number of Saabs currently owned: 4
Location: Shoreline Wa

Re: T5 Wiring Harness Help

Postby squaab99t » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:21 pm

[quote="SwedeSport"]I picked up a CPS bracket kit from Squaabworks. It is a really sweet piece of hardware. It will work perfectly for my race car project. I am very interested in the flywheel timed concept. Keeping my AC is an absolute must in my 85./quote]


Glad you like the kit. I tried to make it as "plug and play" as possible. Tough to ship flywheel all over the world. The folks at Scanwest did the flywheel starter plate option many years ago on their rally car. Worked pretty well, but they ran in to trouble when the sensor got too hot in that location and did not send signal to the ECU. Overnight service they rigged up the windscreen squirter to spray the sensor to cool it off.

As far as A/C, I recall someone adding an additional pulley to the waterpump and running a shorter belt to the A/C compressor.
Image
Might be an option if you want to use the Squaabworks kit again. Looking at the figure, it might even balance the bearing loads on the waterpump?


Return to “SAAB MOTORSPORT TECH”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest