Shifting Problems - Late 5-speed GM 457 14

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DrewP
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Re: Shifting Problems - Late 5-speed GM 457 14

Postby DrewP » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:27 am

You know I actually checked the mounts this morning, and I thought the driveline slop at throttle lift was for sure the front mount, but with the hood open and loading the engine in forward & reverse against the brakes it doesn't jump up at the front like I thought it would. If anything the left side mount is the one with the most play.

If I can get to the speed shop today to pick up some MT-90 I will try that first and see if I have lots of metal in the filter basket in the rear diff cover, and pop the side covers to see if it's anything obvious.
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Re: Shifting Problems - Late 5-speed GM 457 14

Postby Geoff » Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:15 pm

I was also wondering about the state of motor mounts... I've seen plenty of sticky shifting and disengagement problems due to motor mounts.

As far as the Castrol 10-40 is concerned. I wouldn't use it if it has the "sunburst logo" on it. The "sunburst logo" states "for gasoline engines" and indicates that the oil has friction modifiers in it. Friction modifiers make things slippery and this type of oil can be too slippery for synchros, causing them to grind. I don't think that oil would cause any of your issues where the transmission gets stuck in gear or cause a problem getting into reverse.

You can sort of see the sunburst logo on the bottom left of this bottle:
Image

If you're using motor oil in your transmission, you might consider using something without the friction modifiers.
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Re: Shifting Problems - Late 5-speed GM 457 14

Postby turbo stephan » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:44 pm

Jordan wrote:Or you could run mt-90 and be done with it.


That's right. Looking at the viscosity range of shockproof and MLT, and the mixing ranges given, you might end up with a viscosity range very close to MT-90.

squaab99t wrote: ...but on the other hand she ain't broke so why mess with it? At that kind of mileage it might be the same results as changing your dog's brand of food or your beer. :-O


That's a very North American attitude isn't it? :lol: .

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Re: Shifting Problems - Late 5-speed GM 457 14

Postby turbo stephan » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:47 pm

Geoff wrote:As far as the Castrol 10-40 is concerned. I wouldn't use it if it has the "sunburst logo" on it. The "sunburst logo" states "for gasoline engines" and indicates that the oil has friction modifiers in it. Friction modifiers make things slippery and this type of oil can be too slippery for synchros, causing them to grind. I don't think that oil would cause any of your issues where the transmission gets stuck in gear or cause a problem getting into reverse.

You can sort of see the sunburst logo on the bottom left of this bottle:
Image

If you're using motor oil in your transmission, you might consider using something without the friction modifiers.


I use Castrol GTX High Milage at the moment. With those additives in there I believe it probably creates a higher friction. Today I had no problems and it shifted fine. However, I'm open to try new oils.

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Re: Shifting Problems - Late 5-speed GM 457 14

Postby DrewP » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:50 am

So... a full year later.... :bawl:

Pulled the covers off my 457-14 to see what's going on with it sticking in 5th when hot, and found the Redline Shockproof that was in there all congealed and stuck to all the surfaces inside.

The 5th syncro spring and cup look find on initial inspection, I'll probably pill the snap ring off 5th and slide it back on the shaft to double-check that the teeth aren't all chewed up, and check the ball detent under the reverse cover, but I'm hopeful it's just a lubrication issue.

This is probably the reason it says not to mix the Shockproof with other fluids. It was also probably overheated since I don't have a trans cooler.

I ran a flush through it yesterday of 1.5 qts clean (and cheap) engine oil and 1 qt of ATF to dissolve out some of the buildup. Today will drain that and do something like 1 qt ATF, 0.5-1.0 qt diesel, and the balance engine oil and run it some again.

Getting some work done on this car, gonna re-make the exhaust so it comes out the back instead of the side, mount the Panasport wheels I bought from Tom Bier once they're painted white and get some sticky tires.

I also replaced all 3 power steering lines to get rid of the leak that developed and get this car back on the road. Since the green car is broken I moved on to working on the other cars that need some attention....


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I also mounted the early Turbo grille I bought from Jason along with that pair of NOS plain headlamp surrounds. With the Panasports and the lower side trim deleted and Jason's white Turbo stripes along the bottom it'll have a pretty sweet early '80's look to it:

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Re: Shifting Problems - Late 5-speed GM 457 14

Postby SwedeSport » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:37 am

That grille looks nice on there. It matches the headlight surrounds pretty well.
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Re: Shifting Problems - Late 5-speed GM 457 14

Postby DrewP » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:44 pm

SwedeSport wrote:That grille looks nice on there. It matches the headlight surrounds pretty well.




Yes, they are about exactly the same color. Totally lucked out there, I like it.

I don't have a 'TURBO' badge to put on the grille, but I do have this guy. Need to make a backing plate and find a pair of retaining rings:


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Re: Shifting Problems - Late 5-speed GM 457 14

Postby Jordan » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:09 pm

Yuk, that is nas-TAY.
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Re: Shifting Problems - Late 5-speed GM 457 14

Postby s900t8v » Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:28 am

the later transmissions (Gm45X12 GM45X14/ gm55X06 had revised synchro rings, forks and synchro cones as everyone knows so saab could fit even wider gears in but the revision lead to saab releasing a service bulletin in 92 due to rapid shift quality decline and gear selection complaints...

as luke said the cones burr badly in the 91 model trannys due to a design fault in the synchro cones + rings this shows up especially on 1st/2nd gears because they get the hardest work out. The burrs catch on the synchro muffs and prevent proper engagement, or cause grinding. the synchro rings also wear badly causing grinding.

wow that shockproof stuff looks cool! :yay:

I'd consider your engine mounts definitely for 5th, if the left side engine mounts is bad then it prevents the proper clockwise rotation on the shaft to get the selector finger into the 5th gear actuator and so you would probably be attempting to engage 4th/5th which is blocked by the interlock device. (you can't get 5th with the reverse lockout collar lifted can you?)

To test my theory just open up the dipstick cover and watch the mechanism as you try to engage 5th - if the selector finger isn't clearly in the 5th gate then you know you're trying to engage 2 gears.

You could also remove the selector interlock device (the small cylinder with a slot in it at the top right hand corner) this should then allow you to engage 2 gears (aka 4th + 5th) to rule out a stuck 5th gear shift actuator. make sure you put it back though :lol:

On 2 high mileage transmissions a friend of mine has, BOTH have stuck 5th gear selector shafts. The shafts have a steel shaft that is a pretty tight fit inside them, the tranny we tore down the selector shaft was so gummed up the shaft jammed, once we cleaned and reoiled it the car shifted into 5th perfectly, it means pulling off the primary housing though. so it's best to ensure it's not something else first.

just my thoughts
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Re: Shifting Problems - Late 5-speed GM 457 14

Postby DrewP » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:50 am

A couple rounds of flushing with a mix of ATF, engine oil, diesel, and however much PB Blaster was left in one of my cans has yielded pretty good results.

Shifts smoother in 1-4, still a little sticky in 5th but doesn't crunch on engagement anymore.

I ended up taking the snap ring off the 5th gear syncro hub and spread everything as far apart as I could with the case still assembled (I have pretty small hands - this was a tricky job). Didn't find anything obviously wrong with any of the syncro hub parts, but I couldn't get a good look at the drive dogs or their leading edges, but I could engage an disengage it very smoothly by hand with the 5th selector fork disconnected.

I also made sure to re-assemble it with the right spacing on the syncro spring free ends. I didn't count how many teeth were between the ends before I re-assembled it, but it's possible the spring was in wrong in the first place.

In any case, been driving the car and will report back when I pop the reverse cover and check all the selector fingers. Just good to have it out of the garage.



SIDE NOTE: I actually filled the trans for now with Dexron-VI automatic transmission fluid. GM has been spec'ing ATF in their manual transmissions for a while, and P/N 93165414 Saab manual tranmission fluid that's recommended for '79-'98 900's is actually labelled as Dexron-VI. The '0063' manual trans fluid that goes in everything else is red, and smells sweet like ATF does as well.

So far my car shifts great with that in there. I mainly did it for all the detergents to dissolve out the rest of the smurf splooge that's left over from the Redline Shockproof, and will report when I change that out for MT85/MT90.
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Re: Shifting Problems - Late 5-speed GM 457 14

Postby Geoff » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:06 pm

DrewP wrote:The '0063' manual trans fluid that goes in everything else is red, and smells sweet like ATF does as well.


I had thought the same thing. Too bad I don't know anyone with an FTIR and some free time.
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Re: Shifting Problems - Late 5-speed GM 457 14

Postby DrewP » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:44 pm

Ditto. I have a strong suspicion it's almost all the same stuff just re-packaged.
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Re: Shifting Problems - Late 5-speed GM 457 14

Postby DrewP » Wed May 01, 2013 11:13 am

Trans shifts better than it ever has, I'm irked at my own laziness for not tearing into this sooner, but things have been a whirlwind. Slowly knocking projects off the list... getting there.
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