circle track 2.1

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tirediron
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circle track 2.1

Postby tirediron » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:55 pm

contemplating a 900 build for a high level mini stock class.

i'm not worried about the chassis, my other cars have done excellent in lower divisions. I am however a bit skeptical about making enough power to be competitive.
I need close to 160whp to be in the ballpark.

will be a 2.1 with stock head and T-5.
bottom end must be mostly stock. can go .040" over and balance.
no porting.
12 to 1 comp max.

the rules list is long, but that's the basic stuff. I know there are few who have built n/a motors and even fewer that build to a specific rule set, but many of you have more experience with these engines than i.

am I dreaming?
-matt

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DrewP
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Re: circle track 2.1

Postby DrewP » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:52 pm

If you can crank the compression up to the limit and put on a good exhaust that might be possible.

What can you do for cams, and intake and exhaust manifolds? Does the head have to be stock? If you can put a T5 head on it it'll make your life a lot easier.
"You can educate ignorance, but you can't fix stupid."

tirediron
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Re: circle track 2.1

Postby tirediron » Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:45 pm

the only regulation on cams is max lift at valve, which i believe is .470 or so.
essentially any header can be used. beyond that only a race muffler and turn down is requred.
intake has to be stock and not ported. tech would never know if a t5 head was stock or not.... however, being that there is no head porting allowed, that would be difficult to make it appear factory.

race fuel IS allowed, although at 12 to 1 with t5 i think i could get away with 93 without melting pistons. maybe.
-matt

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Jordan
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Re: circle track 2.1

Postby Jordan » Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:12 pm

You could also run e85 with T5 unless mileage is an issue

tirediron
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Re: circle track 2.1

Postby tirediron » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:15 pm

it doesn't say anywhere that I CAN'T run e85. it actually says nothing about fuel whatsoever. most do use at least 98 octane. my carbureted 2.3 mustang does NOT appreciate anything less.

full rule set can be found here:
http://northeastministocktour.com/wp/racing-info/
-matt

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Jordan
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Re: circle track 2.1

Postby Jordan » Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:07 pm

I meant that you have to use 25% more fuel so if you were endurance racing you would have to do more pit stops. But if you are just doing sprints or something, it wouldn't be a big deal

tirediron
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Re: circle track 2.1

Postby tirediron » Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:34 pm

I got ya I was just most concerned about passing tech. most races are only 50 laps, no issue at all.
-matt

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Geoff
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Re: circle track 2.1

Postby Geoff » Fri Aug 08, 2014 12:29 pm

The rules are kind of confusing because they're available in a PDF and then someone tried to summarize them quickly in HTML and there are some contradictions. BUT, it looks to me like you could run a T5 head (nobody would know) and a slightly modified intake manifold.
"Gasket matching is legal.... maximum gasket match with be 1/2 inch". So maybe you could "gasket match" to the T5 head. It might be kind of crappy though.

I also see that the maximum displacement is 2500cc. People in Sweden have built 2.5L engines from 2.1 blocks using a 2.3 crank from a 9000. The best way to do it is with new pistons and longer rods but the cheaper racing groups (folkracing) use the stock rods and I think pistons with shorter skirts. Then they grind a clearance groove in the block to make room for the counterweight and a clearance groove in the transmission (above the diff). Not sure if they shorten the counterweights for more clearance. I'm told that it works...

Your rules say it must be a stock crank. Well it is a stock crank... for a 9000 ;)

It might be worth reading through this thread:
http://www.uksaabs.co.uk/UKS/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=17159&sid=bfd753dccbf3bbf3c942504271e8d54e&start=320
He has 175hp at the wheels with a N/A 8v 2.0 H motor. A bunch of the modifications aren't legal for you though (ITBs, porting, big valves)
The kind of dirty that doesn't wash off :eyebrows:

tirediron
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Re: circle track 2.1

Postby tirediron » Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:22 pm

I had looked into the 9000 crank setup a while ago, may be time to look again. thanks for all the info!

I think for now at least, I would keep the stock displacement. if the did happen to check me, I would have to comply with their weight rule, being 1 pound per cc (2150lbs minimum). im my experience less weight > power. my current 900 weights 2255lbs with me in it..... I think with a mostly tube chassis I can get under that.

one advantage to running something like a saab is most likely, the guys doing tech have never even seen one. right now it's all mustangs, vw, Honda, neons and a couple nissans. if the porting required to run a t5 head isn't too severe, I probably can slide one by tech.

I am parting out my '99 9-3 street car in the interest of this, so ive got all the parts in stock.
-matt

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Geoff
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Re: circle track 2.1

Postby Geoff » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:01 pm

I'm not sure what they mean by "maximum gasket match 1/2", is that diameter or depth or....

Read through this thread:
http://saabrally.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2001&hilit=manifold
There's some info about using a 9-5 two-piece intake manifold to adapt the C900 manifold to a T or T7 head (still needs some porting/matching) but it could be another option that might look stock if you do it right...

Image
The kind of dirty that doesn't wash off :eyebrows:

tirediron
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Re: circle track 2.1

Postby tirediron » Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:30 pm

i'm not sure what they mean with the gasket match rule. I would assume that 1/2" is the max depth you can cut into the manifold in the direction of the runner..

skimmed though that thread briefly. ill take another look. pretty sure my aluminum fab skills are not up to the task of making it look factory though.
-matt

tirediron
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Re: circle track 2.1

Postby tirediron » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:43 pm

i'm sure this has been answered somewhere, but is a '93 9k 2.3 turbo head a "t5" head (same as a 2.0 turbo) or something different?

how about a 2.3 n/a in either a ng900 or 9k?

ive also got a 9k to cannibalize. like to know what i'm working with before I start making more a mess of my garage than it already is. the more parts I can dig out of my existing stash the better...
-matt

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Jordan
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Re: circle track 2.1

Postby Jordan » Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:49 am

I think it is something different. The T5 heads are all "short block" heads, I think 90-93 9000 were closer to the 2.1/2.3 than the "T5" heads. Do save the crank out of that car though....it's what you need for the "Stroker"

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Crazyswede
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Re: circle track 2.1

Postby Crazyswede » Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:32 pm

90-93's are the older long block engines and not t5 heads..basically same head as the 2.1 head
I am the 73%

tirediron
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Re: circle track 2.1

Postby tirediron » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:05 pm

now that you mention it I remember that being discussed somewhere. ive got a t-5 head in stock anyways.
does anyone have pictures of a 2.1 intake ported for use with a t5 head?
-matt


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