Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

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Crazyswede
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Crazyswede » Wed Aug 12, 2015 10:28 am

squaab99t wrote:Great looking TB setup. Nice airbox plate. Looks like you can get a k&n or ITG to wrap that and place on the end plate.
What is the plan to measure engine load for the ECU?
Has that header been run before? If so how did it fare up to say a MSS?



The header was run before on a 2.0 16v rally engine. Seemed to work well but no idea how it compared to the MSS header. I will be running an MSS header on the engine that originally ran that header...well almost the same engine...technically its a new block.
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Luke
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Luke » Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:25 pm

squaab99t wrote:Great looking TB setup. Nice airbox plate. Looks like you can get a k&n or ITG to wrap that and place on the end plate.
What is the plan to measure engine load for the ECU?
Has that header been run before? If so how did it fare up to say a MSS?


Yep, I have an ITG filter that fits right on that. For ecu load I did build a small vacuum log with 4mm tubes from each runner linked together, but I do have my doubts on how effective that will be, I am thinking that primarily the maps will need to be TPS biased.

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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Geoff » Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:11 pm

What runner length did you end up with?

What are you using for paint on the block? I used to use Eastwood's Coroless which was an exact match for B engine paint. But they changed that paint and now sell "Rust Encapsulator". The photos on their website of the red Rust Encapsulator look pretty similar to B engine red (Coroless color) but I saw some in person that had been painted onto sheet metal and it looked more like the color of your block.

Any reason why you went with 45s?
RHD wrote:The single biggest mistake most people make is using an ITB that is too big

Their words, not mine ;)
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Luke » Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:19 pm

Geoff wrote:What runner length did you end up with?

What are you using for paint on the block? I used to use Eastwood's Coroless which was an exact match for B engine paint. But they changed that paint and now sell "Rust Encapsulator". The photos on their website of the red Rust Encapsulator look pretty similar to B engine red (Coroless color) but I saw some in person that had been painted onto sheet metal and it looked more like the color of your block.

Any reason why you went with 45s?
RHD wrote:The single biggest mistake most people make is using an ITB that is too big

Their words, not mine ;)


The paint was just some red engine paint I picked up from NAPA, I also clear coated with a urethane clear as I was spraying something else one day and had a little extra paint in the the gun so I went about looking for objects to make glossy and found the engine.

Honestly not much thought on the 45mm, originally I had a set of 45mm extrudabodies that I picked up quite cheaply as part of a poorly described ebay auction, and I made the manifold and ported to them almost a year ago. There were a few issues to solve with fitting them and then along came a very strong dollar and some money in my paypal account from some things I sold and next thing I knew I had some really nice shiney RHD ITBs :)

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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby squaab99t » Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:28 pm

Luke wrote:
squaab99t wrote:Great looking TB setup. Nice airbox plate. Looks like you can get a k&n or ITG to wrap that and place on the end plate.
What is the plan to measure engine load for the ECU?
Has that header been run before? If so how did it fare up to say a MSS?


Yep, I have an ITG filter that fits right on that. For ecu load I did build a small vacuum log with 4mm tubes from each runner linked together, but I do have my doubts on how effective that will be, I am thinking that primarily the maps will need to be TPS biased.

Why do you suspect the MAP will not work well? Too much lag, bad average across the four ITB? The alpha N just seems too far removed as an inferred engine load.

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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Luke » Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:47 am

squaab99t wrote:
Luke wrote:
squaab99t wrote:Great looking TB setup. Nice airbox plate. Looks like you can get a k&n or ITG to wrap that and place on the end plate.
What is the plan to measure engine load for the ECU?
Has that header been run before? If so how did it fare up to say a MSS?


Yep, I have an ITG filter that fits right on that. For ecu load I did build a small vacuum log with 4mm tubes from each runner linked together, but I do have my doubts on how effective that will be, I am thinking that primarily the maps will need to be TPS biased.

Why do you suspect the MAP will not work well? Too much lag, bad average across the four ITB? The alpha N just seems too far removed as an inferred engine load.


From talking with others that have done standalone with ITB's , the map signal ends up not being that useful in tuning other than in idle , after that it's pretty much atmospheric pressure all the time. That said, I'm sure that trionic can be made to work well, I think its just a matter of some time spent tuning it... I also have the electromotive system in case the trionic does not want to play nice.
The engine is now in a for a test fit - no clearance issues with the intake, filter, alternator relocation or the exhaust, so that's a big relief. I also easily adapted the exhaust manifold to the downpipe. I probably need to build a different coolant reservoir that mounts further to the rear to better route the coolant into the water pump since the air filter is in the way of a nice direct path now. I laid out the trionic loom from a NG900 and because the TPS is actually closer to where it would be in a NG900, the lack of turbo-stuffs and ability to easily go through a hole in the firewall, I won't need to cut even a single wire on the loom to hookup!

I still need to convert the car back to EFI pumps since it was running carbs most recently. Mechanically, the car just needs a solid weekend of work to be a runner. After that it will just be a matter of tuning.


engine2.jpg
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby DrewP » Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:25 pm

Damn. That looks awesome.
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby 99Super » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:13 pm

How did you relocate the alternator? What alternator are you using? I want to get rid if my big, fat, misaligned Bosch unit and go to something smaller and lighter.

Looks great so far!!

John

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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Luke » Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:00 pm

99Super wrote:How did you relocate the alternator? What alternator are you using? I want to get rid if my big, fat, misaligned Bosch unit and go to something smaller and lighter.

Looks great so far!!

John


Using one of those denso mini alternators, 70 amps and about 1/2 the size and weight of stock. The clocking does not work out perfectly but its workable since its so small. I made some aluminum bushings that pressed into the stock mount that adapted. I'll grab a picture.

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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Luke » Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:13 pm

Heres a pretty good view of the alternator - you can also see the crank trigger setup on the undersized pulley.

alt.JPG

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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby DrewP » Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:40 pm

It's adorable!
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby 99Super » Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:08 pm

Thanks! That's exactly the direction I was thinking. I'll have to hit the local yards to find one (or one similar). I like how you did the bushings, a bit beyond my capabilities, but I can hire it out.

Power steering? Which rack?

John

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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby squaab99t » Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:42 pm

That header looks very much at home when it is in the car. Looked a bit wild when it was out in the open. What size id are the primaries? Any size step up partly down the length?

Kinda make sense on the MAP load sensor, but my buddy's big block is na and he uses a map sensor only. He is running an AEM Infinity ecu. He tuned it on the engine dyno held at steady state rpm and varied the load with the throttle, tuning each cell from light load up to wot.

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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Luke » Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:45 am

99Super wrote:Thanks! That's exactly the direction I was thinking. I'll have to hit the local yards to find one (or one similar). I like how you did the bushings, a bit beyond my capabilities, but I can hire it out.

Power steering? Which rack?

John


I don't think those alternators were used in any cars, the normal applications are small utility vehicles and compact tractors. I picked this one up brand new on ebay for about $120 shipped with no core charge. The picture dosen't do justice to the size really, its so small. I have one on my '48 Willys that's been fine so far, but we'll see how it like sustained 7000 rpm on this engine.

The rack is a 900 rack, its a bit of work to put into the 99, but totally worth it when combined with the quickener.

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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Mezzanine » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:38 am

squaab99t wrote:That header looks very much at home when it is in the car. Looked a bit wild when it was out in the open. What size id are the primaries? Any size step up partly down the length?

Kinda make sense on the MAP load sensor, but my buddy's big block is na and he uses a map sensor only. He is running an AEM Infinity ecu. He tuned it on the engine dyno held at steady state rpm and varied the load with the throttle, tuning each cell from light load up to wot.


The big difference with Kevin's engine is that he has a common manifold that the MAP draws its vacuum signal from...ITBs won't make a smooth vacuum signal. Luke's vacuum log should help smooth the vacuum out, but Alpha-N is still going to be the way to go. When setting up the tables in an ECU, you'll want to emphasize the resolution in the lower range because as Luke said, once you get over ~20% open on the throttle, you're pretty much at WOT.

There are a number of ECUs on the market that allow for some MAP and Alpha-N blending- I thought I'd need to go this route, but after all my research I've discovered that it isn't really necessary. Alpha-N works better than it sounds like it would. Blending the signals is big if you're running ITBs and a turbo, but not NA.

I have no idea how T5 will handle the ITBs, nor how the tuning will work out as I have no experience with it.
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