Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

THE place for technical discussions concering the construction and preparation of SAABs for all forms of motorsport, Rally, Road Racing, Auto-X etc....
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aero84
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby aero84 » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:09 am

Hi Luke

I have a old Eletromotive system just kicking around.
So if you can use it its yours!
I just have to find the shipping rates to the US.
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Best regards. Jakob Jensen - Denmark
Building a 99 hill climb/track racer

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Mezzanine
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Mezzanine » Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:18 pm

I'm so excited to hear about the 2RZ rods! My machinist suggested the same thing, as a matter of happy coincidence since he had a set on the bench when I was there a while back. We never made it past the general arm-waving phase of seeing that they were nearly the same, so I'm glad to see he was right. I had a set of pistons for my own engine build, but as they wouldn't work with the 2RZ rods, I'd like to follow your lead and get some custom pistons to suit the rods.

What are your plans for a head gasket? At 94mm bore, you'll Be limited to B212 gaskets, and a tight fit at that, right?

I'm planning to go with a head gasket to match the T5 head (instead of going with a B2x2 gasket), and anticipate a call to Cometic to get a custom gasket made. Probably go MLS, but I confess I'm a bit ignorant on the subject. I know MLS needs a different surface finish on head and block, but that's about the extent of my knowledge. :dunno:

I did a few rough calculations on the CR for and engine with a 94mm bore and the 46cc chamber volume paired with flat top pistons, and it was showing in the neighborhood of 11.5:1 +/- depending on all the usual factors. Whats the target CR Luke?

I can point you to some exchange valve springs that fit a T5 perfectly and make a step in spring rate. I had some cams made up and my head guy ground a new keeper groove into each valve stem to make up for the reduced base circle of the cams. I'd gladly share the spring and cam info in exchange for the piston order number so I can get a set of my own. :P
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Crazyswede
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Crazyswede » Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:45 pm

You will also need a 2.1 block in order to fit the 94mm pistons.
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Mezzanine
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Mezzanine » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:40 pm

Crazyswede wrote:You will also need a 2.1 block in order to fit the 94mm pistons.


Given that there aren't any blocks at 94mm from stock, any block you choose will require a bore job... I've got both to choose from, and I'll likely use my B202 gray block since it is the prettiest. :thumbsup:

Scanwest has bored 202 blocks out to 93+mm for years in customer 2.1 cars without any issue. Are you aware of any specific differences in castings from B202 to B212?
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Crazyswede
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Crazyswede » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:08 pm

Pretty sure the 2.1 block is a completely different casting and is not just a 2.0 bored over by 3 mm. There may be enough meat in the cylinder walls to support a 4mm overbore on a 2.0 liter block but I think its a risky bet. If you don't cut into the water jacket you may experience block failure or overheating issues. a stock 2.1 is a 93mm bore vs a 2.0 at 90mm. Check the manual on the 2.0 for the max overbore recommended by the factory...a 4mm overbore is about .160" which is a ton of material.

We have my old gray block that was bored over 2mm (.080") and is no good...have wanted to bore it out until we cut through a coolant passage...though I suspect we wont get there before you build your motor.

Seems there are some mentions of people boring 2.0 blocks to 93mm to fit 2.1 internals with no real issues on a non turbo build. I'd be wary of going another mm though and I'd feel a lot better about just taking a stock 2.1 block and having a good hone job done knowing that there was plenty of cylinder wall left vs being on or close to the edge.
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Crazyswede
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Crazyswede » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:35 pm

I am the 73%

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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Scott » Mon May 18, 2015 3:21 pm

More updates, please?
I wish my car had winter mood technology.

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Luke
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Luke » Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:59 am

I got a little sidetracked with spring house projects but I've made some progress on the engine build. A month or two ago I had done a valve clearance check with the cams installed using the putty method and discovered that I did not have sufficient clearance on the intake valves. I thought through the options and decided that the easiest thing to do cut them in the block. This may sound a bit crude but its actually a legitimate method because it allows a smaller pocket to be precisely cut than what is usually done by a piston manufacture.
I started by taking an old valve and welding a piece of body file to it:
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Next I took an old junk cylinder head and cut the cam carrier portion off to give clearance for a drill.

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Then I set the depth of the cut I wanted using a stack of 8V shims and shaft collar:

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After taping off the deck and hooking up a shop vac to the exhaust port, and about 5 minutes of cutting per piston, the reliefs were cut...

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gmreider
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby gmreider » Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:38 am

Hi Luke, I did something similar about 30 years ago when I had a G production midget with 13-1 compression. Except I brazed a small high speed steel lathe tool to a valve head. worked just like your rig, but was only 4 valve reliefs to do. You might have been able to run your cutter faster than I ran my fly cutter?
Looking forward to your finished motor , so we can all copy your hard work.

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squaab99t
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby squaab99t » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:59 pm

There's the Luke I remember. Nice shop work. It is a heavy burden to keep content flowing on this forum.
Owning a house, keeping the little lady happy, and mancave time, all a fine balance.

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Luke
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Luke » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:14 pm

gmreider wrote:Hi Luke, I did something similar about 30 years ago when I had a G production midget with 13-1 compression. Except I brazed a small high speed steel lathe tool to a valve head. worked just like your rig, but was only 4 valve reliefs to do. You might have been able to run your cutter faster than I ran my fly cutter?
Looking forward to your finished motor , so we can all copy your hard work.


I actually trialed three methods of cutting them on an aluminum scrap bolted to the head, a brazed 3/16" square HSS tool, a roloc sanding disk glued to an oversized volvo valve, and then the body file. The HSS actually cut the fastest by far, but I got a fair amount chatter in the cut and my depth repeatability wasnt as good, as I had to carefully indicate the high spot of the cutter as I set the shaft collar. The sanding disk took a long time and would have needed progressing grits to get the final surface finish ok which would mean unbolting the head multiple times for each pocket... finally the file method seemed to be a good compromise, while not fast, it left a good surface finish and was very repeatable.

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Luke
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Luke » Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:18 am

A few other tidbits to update this thread:

These are the cams, a friend brought them over from Sweden, they are the most aggressive profile they recommend with the hydraulic lifters, which I want to retain for simplicity's sake.

Image


and the intake manifold and throttle bodies:

Image

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Luke
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Luke » Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:09 pm

Slowly looking more like an engine, ready for a test fit as soon as I get the rally car moved into the bay. The brakes are locked up from sitting (sad) .

IMG_3689.jpg


I went with a slightly different throttle body than planned, these are a bit more compact, come out of the box to fit a bosch TPS and and fit standard weber horns (which I already had) and also don't have injector ports to plug. I will save the other set for an 8V setup using an MSS manifold someday.

IMG_3702.JPG


We cleaned up the exhaust manifold which came with Seths 900 rally car, and although its a little silly looking, so far it looks like it will work really well in a 99 because there is not much space down below for manifolds in a 99 since the sheet metal on the belly is much more closed than on a 900.

IMG_3695.JPG

Blue Jello Rain
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby Blue Jello Rain » Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:36 am

Who manufactures the main/rod bearings you use?

All I see around are glyco but I read they are of questionable quality.

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squaab99t
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Re: Rally Car 16V NA Engine Build

Postby squaab99t » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:52 am

Great looking TB setup. Nice airbox plate. Looks like you can get a k&n or ITG to wrap that and place on the end plate.
What is the plan to measure engine load for the ECU?
Has that header been run before? If so how did it fare up to say a MSS?


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