Hey everybody
I'm glad I found this supacoola forum,lotsa good reading & the yumpiest
info exchange around!
My question is how difficult of an install is a steering quickener?
How is it mated w/ the column w/o over-extending it?
Has anyone here used a man. rack in combo w/ a quickener &
were the results acceptable?
Would it be okay inna streetcar or "too twitchy"?
I haven't installed the man rack yet, I can't find the appropiate
inner tie rods...the inners from the p/s rack are much smaller...
anybody got hints on where to find these?
Also, Saab used to offer a manual rack rebuild kit,anybody know
any specialist shops that may carry something universal I could try to use?
Who was the manu of the early man. racks?
Any other cars use the same brand? perhaps Volvo?
Any advice/testimony on the man. rack + quickener would be highly
appreciated, as well as any links to enlightening discussion or photos
of install...
thanx!
900 manual rack + steering quickener?
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Jordan
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I'm not sure if anybody here has done the manual rack + quickener... it's usually power rack + quickener or factory quick ratio manual rack. I'm sure its possible if you have the arm strength... what are your plans for the car?
My 99 has the EMS quick rack in decent shape and it's not bad to turn with fairly sticky 195 tires on, however after a couple of auto-x runs I can feel it the next morning. I'm going to moving to wider, stickier tires soon so I'll be able to judge the rack with those. I like the simplicity of a manual rack but parts are hard to find, I thought there was a group by in the UK for some sort of inner tierod and/or bushings.
I know Luke and Geoff have some good info on fitting a quickener and I'm sure they will chime in.
My 99 has the EMS quick rack in decent shape and it's not bad to turn with fairly sticky 195 tires on, however after a couple of auto-x runs I can feel it the next morning. I'm going to moving to wider, stickier tires soon so I'll be able to judge the rack with those. I like the simplicity of a manual rack but parts are hard to find, I thought there was a group by in the UK for some sort of inner tierod and/or bushings.
I know Luke and Geoff have some good info on fitting a quickener and I'm sure they will chime in.
The manual "quick rack" is the same ratio as a regular power steering rack so its not really that quick. Its only quick in comparision to the very slow regular manual rack. Adding a quickener to a manual rack would be drivable on gravel with rally tires but it would it would be a handful on paved surfaces with wider tires.
I'm using a 1.5:1 ratio quickener for an effective 2.2 turns lock to lock. I built a complete custom column but other like Geoff and Groo have tied into the existing column successfully. I'll dig up some pictures.
I'm using a 1.5:1 ratio quickener for an effective 2.2 turns lock to lock. I built a complete custom column but other like Geoff and Groo have tied into the existing column successfully. I'll dig up some pictures.
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Geoff
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Since you're going from power to manual I'll assume you're talking about a C900.
I have a power rack in my 99 with a 2:1 quickener. There is NO WAY I would try to run a quickener with a manual rack, it would be near impossible to turn even with crappy skinny tires on the car. I know this because the power steering pump on my car died and I had to cut the belt and drive the car a few hours home with the quickener and essentially a manual rack (power steering 99 rack is a pretty similar ratio to a power steering 900 or manual EMS 900 rack, slightly less turns lock to lock than a regular manual rack). The car was almost impossible to steer and I considered having it towed. I personally don't like manual racks, the power steering racks are a similar ratio to the EMS manual racks but make the car much for drivable, especially when you've modified it (limited slip, grippy tires, stiff suspension, steering quickener).
To put the quickener in you need to either fabricate a complete new steering column or replace a section of it with the quickener. The stock steering columns are collapsible (unless you have an airbag). You shouldn't run on the street with a non-collapsible rack without a race harness because the steering wheel is the first thing your chest hits in an impact. I've seen some videos of pig carcasses hitting steering wheels when they were developing the collapsible steering column... a pretty gruesome sight. Anyway, on my 99 I built a whole new steering column and I think Luke did the same. Groo put a quickener into his 900 and I'm pretty sure all he left the stock column but replaced the lower section that has the U-joints at the end with the quickener. This is how I would do it on a street car. The only problem was your toes would bump the quickener sometimes when working the pedals, you probably get used to it though. You need to get some U-joints and some splined adapters to make everything fit together. Some people (rednecks) weld the U-joints and splined adapters to their new steering columns. Don't do that because welds can break and heat destroys U-joints. Instead drill the U-joints, adapters, and steering column tube to accept tension pins - two of them per connection at 90° angles to each other. I found some specs on doing this on the internets somewhere, I think on the U-joint manufacturer's site. I'm not sure if you even need to use any extra length of steering column stock to make the quickener fit in a 900 when replacing the lower U-joint piece, maybe Groo will chime in... In that case all you would need would be two U-joints and the quickener. You need to mount the quickener to the car to hold it stationary, you may also need some extra support bearings along the steering column, depending on how you hook it up.
I got my U-joints and splined adapters from Borgeson in CT. http://borgeson.com/ I tried some from the race parts catalog that I bought the quickener from and they were total junk, the splines weren't concentric with the bore and wouldn't have gripped the shaft. (hehe) The stuff from Borgeson was really good quality. I remember the spline on the C900 and 99 power steering racks being 9/16" (14mm) and a 32 or 36 spline (I can't remember, count the spline). 99 manual racks are smaller (about 10mm?) and I don't know about the 900 manual racks but I think they might be the same as power racks because I've never heard of someone who did the conversion having to change the U-joints.
You could drive with one on the street. It will be twitchy at first but you'll get used to it pretty quick.
I have a power rack in my 99 with a 2:1 quickener. There is NO WAY I would try to run a quickener with a manual rack, it would be near impossible to turn even with crappy skinny tires on the car. I know this because the power steering pump on my car died and I had to cut the belt and drive the car a few hours home with the quickener and essentially a manual rack (power steering 99 rack is a pretty similar ratio to a power steering 900 or manual EMS 900 rack, slightly less turns lock to lock than a regular manual rack). The car was almost impossible to steer and I considered having it towed. I personally don't like manual racks, the power steering racks are a similar ratio to the EMS manual racks but make the car much for drivable, especially when you've modified it (limited slip, grippy tires, stiff suspension, steering quickener).
To put the quickener in you need to either fabricate a complete new steering column or replace a section of it with the quickener. The stock steering columns are collapsible (unless you have an airbag). You shouldn't run on the street with a non-collapsible rack without a race harness because the steering wheel is the first thing your chest hits in an impact. I've seen some videos of pig carcasses hitting steering wheels when they were developing the collapsible steering column... a pretty gruesome sight. Anyway, on my 99 I built a whole new steering column and I think Luke did the same. Groo put a quickener into his 900 and I'm pretty sure all he left the stock column but replaced the lower section that has the U-joints at the end with the quickener. This is how I would do it on a street car. The only problem was your toes would bump the quickener sometimes when working the pedals, you probably get used to it though. You need to get some U-joints and some splined adapters to make everything fit together. Some people (rednecks) weld the U-joints and splined adapters to their new steering columns. Don't do that because welds can break and heat destroys U-joints. Instead drill the U-joints, adapters, and steering column tube to accept tension pins - two of them per connection at 90° angles to each other. I found some specs on doing this on the internets somewhere, I think on the U-joint manufacturer's site. I'm not sure if you even need to use any extra length of steering column stock to make the quickener fit in a 900 when replacing the lower U-joint piece, maybe Groo will chime in... In that case all you would need would be two U-joints and the quickener. You need to mount the quickener to the car to hold it stationary, you may also need some extra support bearings along the steering column, depending on how you hook it up.
I got my U-joints and splined adapters from Borgeson in CT. http://borgeson.com/ I tried some from the race parts catalog that I bought the quickener from and they were total junk, the splines weren't concentric with the bore and wouldn't have gripped the shaft. (hehe) The stuff from Borgeson was really good quality. I remember the spline on the C900 and 99 power steering racks being 9/16" (14mm) and a 32 or 36 spline (I can't remember, count the spline). 99 manual racks are smaller (about 10mm?) and I don't know about the 900 manual racks but I think they might be the same as power racks because I've never heard of someone who did the conversion having to change the U-joints.
You could drive with one on the street. It will be twitchy at first but you'll get used to it pretty quick.
Speaking of steering it would be really cool to get a group buy together to have a quick ratio rack and pinion made for the 900 power steering rack. James car has some sort of factory quick ratio rack but he hasnt disclosed the details of it to us yet. It seems there might be enough sporty minded saab 900 drivers to get a manufacture to make some custom sets.
Or another option for 99 owners looking for a power assist but not wanting to mess with the plumbing and pump mounting mess. These are a very popular retrofit for historic rally cars in europe.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MGF-Electric-Powe ... dZViewItem
Or another option for 99 owners looking for a power assist but not wanting to mess with the plumbing and pump mounting mess. These are a very popular retrofit for historic rally cars in europe.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MGF-Electric-Powe ... dZViewItem
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Crazyswede
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One thing to watch when comparing racks is that lock to lock specs are not always indicative of the ratio of the rack. Saab racks have a very long travel. I pulled home some hyundai rack at a junkyard that looked to have similar dimensions that I measured as 2.5 turns only to realize that the rack travel was only like 4.5 as compared to 6" on the saab. So yeah it was quick lock to lock but the effective ratio was the same except I couldnt turn sharply.
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Hans
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I would be very interested in a quick rack for a c900. Given that they are just Saginaw racks, I wonder if it wouldn't be too hard to pull from existing parts -- there are, literally, hundreds of flavors of Saginaw racks out there.Luke wrote:Speaking of steering it would be really cool to get a group buy together to have a quick ratio rack and pinion made for the 900 power steering rack.
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Crazyswede
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Luke wrote:One thing to watch when comparing racks is that lock to lock specs are not always indicative of the ratio of the rack. Saab racks have a very long travel. I pulled home some hyundai rack at a junkyard that looked to have similar dimensions that I measured as 2.5 turns only to realize that the rack travel was only like 4.5 as compared to 6" on the saab. So yeah it was quick lock to lock but the effective ratio was the same except I couldnt turn sharply.
This is true. It would be good to know the actual travel of the rack before getting to far ahead.
I am the 73%
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paulh
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Luke wrote:Speaking of steering it would be really cool to get a group buy together to have a quick ratio rack and pinion made for the 900 power steering rack. James car has some sort of factory quick ratio rack but he hasnt disclosed the details of it to us yet. It seems there might be enough sporty minded saab 900 drivers to get a manufacture to make some custom sets.
Or another option for 99 owners looking for a power assist but not wanting to mess with the plumbing and pump mounting mess. These are a very popular retrofit for historic rally cars in europe.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MGF-Electric-Powe ... dZViewItem
ooooh that looks neat! wonder how hard that would be to fit in the 99, doesnt look like it would take up too much room...might have to give this a shot.
Paul
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Crazyswede
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stig-swoosh
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Thanx for all the responses...mounting it in the lower section seems the way to go...thanx for the lead on Boregson too
I like the simplicity/cleanliness of manual steering...I've been running around w/ my p/s disconnected,but it feels slightly sloppy.I finally found a '79 900 EMS rack,but it needs a rebuild...I'm thinking a proper manual rack will tighten it up a bit...but the inner tie rods are the dreaded NLA...
#89 44 787 & 89 48 291...the inners of p/s racks are M14, the inners of manual are M26! However,there seems to be enough meat on the p/s inners to tap out & fit...I hafta buy an M26x1.5 tap & see if that solution works...there was also a rebuild kit specific to the 79 900 EMS racks - 89 44 746 NLA
The manual specifies using BP Energrease FGL inside the rack...anybody know what this is or a good equivalent?
Indeed, there is enough interest in quick ratio manual 900 racks to warrant a groupbuy, there was something on saabnet a while back,but nothing ever came of it...is there a groupbuy currently going on?
I like the simplicity/cleanliness of manual steering...I've been running around w/ my p/s disconnected,but it feels slightly sloppy.I finally found a '79 900 EMS rack,but it needs a rebuild...I'm thinking a proper manual rack will tighten it up a bit...but the inner tie rods are the dreaded NLA...
#89 44 787 & 89 48 291...the inners of p/s racks are M14, the inners of manual are M26! However,there seems to be enough meat on the p/s inners to tap out & fit...I hafta buy an M26x1.5 tap & see if that solution works...there was also a rebuild kit specific to the 79 900 EMS racks - 89 44 746 NLA
The manual specifies using BP Energrease FGL inside the rack...anybody know what this is or a good equivalent?
Indeed, there is enough interest in quick ratio manual 900 racks to warrant a groupbuy, there was something on saabnet a while back,but nothing ever came of it...is there a groupbuy currently going on?
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Crazyswede
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allessence
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I'd be interested on a quick ratio power steering rack that would work in the C900.
Okay, so I'm female and like SAAB's go figure. Mind you, I like a good set of strappy sandal's just about as much though they don't take you thru the corners as fast. LOL
Rosie: http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showt ... =Jennifers
Rosie: http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showt ... =Jennifers
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stig-swoosh
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Hey guys...
...I apologize if I've overstepped my boundaries by posting here & come off like some dumb poser idiot...I have the utmost respect for you guys & your real world experience of making Saabs go fast & turn...I am a rallyfan,but I can't afford to campaign a car on a serious competition level...I like to think of the project I'm doing on my car as "tarmac spec"...if it's inappropiate for me to post streetcar related questions,just lemme know & I'll go into lurker mode...I have a '86 C900T & I'm not particularly fond of the SPG route,I mean I dig the SPG,but I wanted to go more retro as in 900EMS...EMSt16 if you will...the other day I was in the pull-yer-part yard & came across an '86 base 3dr. w/o a sunroof---it's pretty cool & ya don't see 'em much...I think the sunroof assy. weighs in @ around 45 lbs.
Anyway,about the steering...my idea about tapping out the inner tie rods is completely bonkers & I realize this,I'm just frustrated I can't find the proper bits for this 79EMS 900 rack I got...the Saab part# is 89 44 787...I was thinking perhaps 99 inner tie rods might work ( I discovered the Volvo CamGear i.t.r.'s will not fit)...the 79EMS rack has those weird little plastic nipple thingies on the balljoints,I've heard the 99 guys talk about these,but I've never seen the innards of a 99 rack...does anyone know the outer diameter of the 99 rack-ends?...or know of a good photo of one I could eyeball?...and are the inner tie rods for 99 racks still even available????
I realize also manual steering is more mythical romantic "feel the road" type sheet than real performance...the old test Saab did with Blomqvist & Eklund on man. versus pwr. really proved this,I think 1 second quicker per kM w/ the pwr. was the result...I really can't LFB too well,but I keep practicing...I really do enjoy driving & trying to improve my skills...thanx.
...I apologize if I've overstepped my boundaries by posting here & come off like some dumb poser idiot...I have the utmost respect for you guys & your real world experience of making Saabs go fast & turn...I am a rallyfan,but I can't afford to campaign a car on a serious competition level...I like to think of the project I'm doing on my car as "tarmac spec"...if it's inappropiate for me to post streetcar related questions,just lemme know & I'll go into lurker mode...I have a '86 C900T & I'm not particularly fond of the SPG route,I mean I dig the SPG,but I wanted to go more retro as in 900EMS...EMSt16 if you will...the other day I was in the pull-yer-part yard & came across an '86 base 3dr. w/o a sunroof---it's pretty cool & ya don't see 'em much...I think the sunroof assy. weighs in @ around 45 lbs.
Anyway,about the steering...my idea about tapping out the inner tie rods is completely bonkers & I realize this,I'm just frustrated I can't find the proper bits for this 79EMS 900 rack I got...the Saab part# is 89 44 787...I was thinking perhaps 99 inner tie rods might work ( I discovered the Volvo CamGear i.t.r.'s will not fit)...the 79EMS rack has those weird little plastic nipple thingies on the balljoints,I've heard the 99 guys talk about these,but I've never seen the innards of a 99 rack...does anyone know the outer diameter of the 99 rack-ends?...or know of a good photo of one I could eyeball?...and are the inner tie rods for 99 racks still even available????
I realize also manual steering is more mythical romantic "feel the road" type sheet than real performance...the old test Saab did with Blomqvist & Eklund on man. versus pwr. really proved this,I think 1 second quicker per kM w/ the pwr. was the result...I really can't LFB too well,but I keep practicing...I really do enjoy driving & trying to improve my skills...thanx.
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