Multiple Saab woes, its been awhile

[Scott]

Hi all,

The Saabs got together and decided to break down together, and i'm hoping some of you all can point me in the right direction.

1999 9-3. It ran fine, then threw a check engine light. Still ran fine, and i thought it was related to the Tighten gas cap i get periodically. I was going to clear it but then it stopped running. It will start for a sec, then die, start for a sec again then die. I read the code, and it was p0133. I cleared it, car started and ran fine (coincidental i have to think), I ran it around the block with no issue, but it did it again this am. I hear the fuel pump, and it didn't throw any additional codes. Nothing i read seems to indicated the p0133 would stop the car...


1992 900 turbo vert, 230K . Earlier this year the slave cylinder disintegrated. I haven't seen anything like this before. I replaced it, bled the thing to death, and drove it but started having issues getting into gear. It got to the point i couldn't drive it, so i did some research, and decided to replace the clutch master as well. Did this, and bled it to death, and still the same issue, i can't get it into gear when the car is on. The slave seems to move fine and the clutch feels good. The clutch disk itself I have not touched since i got it, 10 years ago, but i recall when my last clutch went it slipped, didn't keep me from getting into gear.

Any thoughts appreciated. Let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks!

[Sam]

First things i'd check.

DI Cassette.

Crank Position Sensor.

Check whichever is older first, DI is more likely from the symptom described.

[Scott]

I'll swap out the DIC and report back. I should have yesterday but was frustrated... :)

[Geoff]

'99 9-3: Follow Sam's advice on getting it running.
The P0133 code may not have anything to do with it. Once you get it back running again you may still get that code. We used to see that code a lot on our '99 9-3 and eventually I found a post somewhere on the internet that said that the ground wires for both oxygen sensors were crimped/glued together and after a while that junction goes bad and results in a sloppy signal. Working from the inside of the car I had to remove the glovebox, open the harness, find the three wires (two in, one out), cut out the junction, solder and shrinkwrap a new junction, and reassemble. No more code. But that never stopped the car from running. Sorry, I don't remember what color the wires were.

'92 900: I've had a few of the aftermarket slave cylinders pop. I think some of the o-rings aren't compatible with brake fluid (?)
But it sounds like the shifting problem evolved after the hydraulic issues. Does the system feel OK? Is there good hydraulic pressure? Is there a ton of slop in the clutch pedal? If the hydraulic system feels good and the clutch pedal pinned joint isn't worn out then I'd look for a collapsed motor mount.

[beckmannag]

On the clutch problem, it sounds like a seized/sticky pilot bearing? Don't recall that being a common problem on the 900, but if you have good hydraulics, and the friction disc isn't rusted to the flywheel, or soaked with gear oil, there aren't many options left.
Bearing degradation would also account for the car gradually becoming harder to shift.

Regarding seals/fluid, the factory units don't get along with Agitene or similar solvents. Learned that the hard way.

[Sam]

Haha since we are on the topic of friction disks that are stuck to the flywheel... I have that problem on my 99 thats been sitting in my garage. I've tried like 3 different starters and they are all deadlocked. How do i fix that without pulling everything apart? I have been tempted to drag it with the wrangler while in gear.

[Scott]

Thanks all for the thoughts. I swapped out the DI Cassette and had the exact same symptoms. I'm subbing this one out, i just don't have the time. Off to Viking automotive... :)

On the convertible, the clutch feels pretty good, a little bit of slop at the top. It didn't occur to me to look at the pivot on the clutch pedal, but its worth a look. The collapsed motor mount is also interesting, what would that look like?

Frozen pilot bearing, is that behind the clutch in the flywheel? Now i think of it, i don't think the clutch disk is stuck to the plate, but can't say i know that for a fact. It wasn't when i replaced the slave cylinder, but its been sitting while i piddle elsewhere on it... is there an easy way to see if that is the case?

On the 99s, only once did i have a clutch get stuck to the flywheel, and i was already going in to replace the clutch so it didn't bother me. After many many years of 99s, i'm surprised it only happened once.

One funny anecdote, in my 99 9-3 the air bag light has been off and on, traced to an airbag in the driver seat. there was a sort of recall for seat wiring around it way back when... anyway, when the O2 sensor code fired, for some reason the airbag light went off. I'm hoping it stays that way, i got tired of it.

[beckmannag]

Scott,
The pilot bearing is in the center of the flywheel. If you pop the round transfer chain cover, put the gearbox in neutral and block the clutch pedal to the floor with a section of broom handle or other prop, you should be able to turn that upper sprocket with a large pair of right angle snap ring pliers.
There will be plenty of drag from the friction disc, but you should be able to get some movement if the pilot bearing turns, and if the clutch disc isn't stuck to either side.
Or remove the clutch cover, block the clutch as previous, and turn the flywheel with a pry bar with the transmission in gear. Should turn over without too much effort, and the clutch disc shouldn't try to 'follow' the flywheel.

Sam, one 'fix' for a stuck 'dry friction' clutch in an antique bulldozer involved flooding the clutch housing with diesel fuel or stoddard solvent, driving back and forth with the brakes on to generate heat, then running the machine into something solid like a tree with fingers crossed in hopes the frictions would let go.
In your case, maybe douse with diesel, tow start the car in third gear with a very long cable, then stand on all three pedals at the same time and hope for the best?

[Geoff]

Ha, I vote for the tree method!
That kind of reminds me of one of the first vehicles I ever drove, an M35 "Deuce and a Half". The owner told me (in a thick northern NH accent), "The nice thing about a truck like this is all you have to do is back up until you hit something. Then you know it's time to go forward again."

A collapsed mount might look something like this:
http://www.moccsplace.com/images/mount/mount.htm

[Scott]

If i can't figure this out, i'm definitely running it into a tree...

I'll take a look at the various items, especially the pry the flywheel item. I took the cover off when i did the slave and frankly wasn't about to wrestle it back on.

On the 9-3, of course it gets towed to the mechanic and starts up and runs fine for him. I want him to try in the AM, cause that was when it happened to me. My credibility as a shade tree mechanic is on the line here.

Any thoughts on the symptoms and temperature?

Scott

[Geoff]

Sometimes fuel pumps will shut off when they get hot and then work fine once they cool off.

Re: clutch cover. I've cut a few to make them easier to get on/off.

[Crazyswede]

DI cassettes usually fail suddenly and then the car wont run again. CPS's can do all sorts of weird things on their way out. They might run fine when cold but once the car gets hot they get wonky...or like the one in my sprinter van...I shut the engine off once and it never started again.

[Sam]

I've definitely seen cases where the DI will allow the car to run like crap and be borderline undriveable but in my experience the problem is consistent. Once its gone bad its going to stay bad regardless of temperature or anything else. The CPS can definitely cause a no start from what I have read, but in my decade of 9-5 ownership I only had to replace it once and I did it as a preventative measure. I'm not sure how many DI cassettes I went through in about 140k, probably at least 4. My experience was on an 01 from 2004-2014. The DI got more reliable over the years so its worth checking the date code. Also make sure never to turn them upside down before use.

[Scott]

Flipping car ran fine for the mechanic, even after a couple of days. I got it and its running fine, but now i don't trust it. UGH. I'll continue to monitor. I did swap out the DIC, maybe i'll pretend that fixed it. I wonder if i should just do the CPS, as car has 160k and i've never done it.

I'll bite, why not turn the DIC upside down?

I'm definitely checking out the convertible this weekend, i need 2 cars running in case the 9-3 dies again.

OT, there is a nice 99 9-3 with a water logged engine near me for cheap, how is swapping engines in these beasts? The C900 i know for swaps, but nothing else.

[Sam]

It has some kind of weird oil filled capacitors in it, and if you turn it upside down it can seep out of where its supposed to be. That's pretty widespread knowledge that i believe is in the service manuals somewhere.